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TOPIC: How many of you will actually use FaJ, given that registering is mandatory?

How many of you will actually use FaJ, given that registering is mandatory? 28 May 2018 16:45 #8041

  • osris
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How many of you will actually use FaJ, given that registering is mandatory—as far as we know? If anyone can give me evidence that it isn’t mandatory to register, it would be welcome.

Given the lack of evidence so far, how many of you will actually login to FaJ and make job searches and applications?

This matter is complicated by the fact that many of you will refuse to give your password for FaJ to your work coaches—even if pressured to, or in some cases, threatened.

For those of you not that suicidal, what strategies and ploys will you use to “play along” with FaJ, to use it in such a way so that it’s time-stamping facility (read that as “sanction-making machine”) is not such a threat to you. Is there even such an “intelligent” way to use FaJ?
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How many of you will actually use FaJ, given that registering is mandatory? 28 May 2018 18:17 #8052

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osris, we, like other members are playing the waiting game until DWP answer some of the freedom of information requests that have been posted recently because all we have to go on at the moment are some soundbites and links on this new site and although they give some insight to work coaches not being able to have access to our account, or CV, or other information held within the account (their words, not mine) I think it`s safe to say we are still waiting for that water tight response from DWP saying the new Find a Job site is NOT mandatory and even if it is mandatory to OPEN an account because they say it is a condition of claiming, like Universal Jobmatch, we can choose to lock them out (again, quoting DWP FOI response saying they CANNOT gain access) if we choose to say no.

I understand where your coming from on the risk assessment of all this and your not alone, but hopefully in the coming weeks/months, members will have had a chance to get more information from their work coaches regarding this `access` and opening an account. I would just ask straight out whether I was obliged to open a FAJ account and if the answer coming back was yes, it`s a condition of your claim, I would say fine, could you print me off the factsheet on that just for official reasons?

If none were forthcoming, I would be suspicious and point out that DWP are supposed to say IN WRITING the conditions of our responsibilities and I like to have written confirmation of such advice. Because if my work coach was going to put on my Claimant Commitment that I would open a FAJ account and allow my work coach access to it, I wouldn`t be doing that without first being able to read their guidelines on it and if I agreed with the sites terms & conditions. Even with UJM we were given a Cookies Factsheet (I never was given this) to determine whether we accepted those. All we know at the moment is some people have been told already that they must open an account only, while others have been asked to show screen shots of their activity on the site. And other members who didn`t get told anything when they signed on. So it`s all a bit up in the air at the moment until something solid is posted we can all use as a genuine reason not to play ball.
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How many of you will actually use FaJ, given that registering is mandatory? 28 May 2018 18:38 #8057

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I try my best osris but I don`t know all the answers sadly. All I will say is we should appreciate that not everyone will accept what`s already been posted and I`ve been guilty of questioning things in some of my own replies, but such as the nature of the beast that is DWP, we need to remember that we are all members on here for a reason and that`s to try and support one another and I know that can be difficult sometimes when we all want the answers yesterday! Frustrations can run high at the best of times.

Knowledge is power, but unless we know the formal answers, we can`t win any battles, so we need to take a deep breath and gather out strengths for beating those who are responsible for our frustrations and not one another. We are up against the clock, yes. But it`s better to arm ourselves with the knowledge that will gain us victory rather than rushing in.
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How many of you will actually use FaJ, given that registering is mandatory? 28 May 2018 20:29 #8067

  • MrFrankZola
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DWP having powers to mandate X, does not make X mandatory in and of itself. A 'coach' must follow a process that is reasonable per individual and recent disclosures of internal guidance show a claimant may find "other" and "more appropriate" jobsites. Some claimants only use Find a job as a search engine (& not logged in) and apply for jobs that link directly to an employers site (third party), which would allow the clainmant to say they use and apply for jobs using FAJ and FAJ would keep no record of such activity. (when claimant not logged in*)



*Pragmatically if a claimant does have a FAJ account, they may wish to use 2 browsers (if poss), using one to carry out research and apply for jobs that go to the employers site, like

Consultant in Intensive Care
Link findajob.dwp.gov.uk/details/26519 goes to www.jobs.nhs.uk/xi/vacancy/?vac_ref=915050620

and use the other browser, to log into FAJ, to only apply for a job that must go through FAJ.

Of course nothing stops people having multiple FAJ accounts.
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How many of you will actually use FaJ, given that registering is mandatory? 28 May 2018 21:39 #8068

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osris wrote:
For those of you not that suicidal, what strategies and ploys will you use to “play along” with FaJ, to use it in such a way so that it’s time-stamping facility (read that as “sanction-making machine”) is not such a threat to you. Is there even such an “intelligent” way to use FaJ?

I can prove that I registered with the website by showing a cropped screen shot of the confirmation email (or page where I am logged in). Neither screen shots will show anything that could get me sanctioned or that is private to me.

If they ask for my FaJ password I will tell them no. That could lead to a sanction doubt but I am confident I can win this, especially if it goes to tribunal. I mean, what choice do you have? Once you been asked to provide a password, there is no winning. Either you say no and take the consequences.. or you let your work coach get full control over your FaJ account. I believe like most people here work coaches won't ever ask for password, so I suggest you stop worrying about that.

Other than that, I will look for jobs on FaJ a few times a week. I will tell my work coach that along with everything else I do. Hopefully all the other jobs I apply for and everything else job search related my work coach will be fine with it. Essentially my FaJ account will be left untouched once I registered with it and then I'll just use it's search engine. Perhaps even apply for a few jobs externally when possible. That should be enough. No time stamps, nothing to worry about. Work coach won't ever have a clue I am not actually using my FaJ account :)
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How many of you will actually use FaJ, given that registering is mandatory? 28 May 2018 22:21 #8070

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Not me until they can produce something in their poxy regs/law that says otherwise.Its a big middle finger sign from me :P

"If they ask for my FaJ password I will tell them no."They'd be stupid to do so.



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How many of you will actually use FaJ, given that registering is mandatory? 28 May 2018 23:38 #8072

  • MrFrankZola
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More pragmatic ideas.

The only need to "time stamp" a specific users activity, is when it is for a job that can ONLY be applied for via a FAJ account and it would be a fact
that all Jobsites will 'time-stamp' such when an application is made, even if this is just done by getting an auto email to confirm the application made.

All other FAJ activity can be undertaken without an FAJ account and when a user is not logged in, clearly FAJ will not time stamp anyone's account when merely
searching for jobs and checking which sites go through to another site, like that of an employer. (when not logged in)

As Universal Credit has a 35 hour a week work search expectation, how claimants make use of that time is up to them.

The enemy of not wanting websites to generate data that identifies a person's activity (account user) is convenience, it's a trade off. There are many online
note pads, for plain text, that can be used to keep a record of links found to jobs when only using FAJ as a search engine, such as ones that go to an employers website.

FAJ can be used to create a search query like: (and bookmarked in a browser)

findajob.dwp.gov.uk/search?q=Surgeon&loc=86470

which can be visited as often as one like's to check for new jobs and does not need an account to do so

The 'Advanced Job Search' function can also be used to create a more detailed search query like

findajob.dwp.gov.uk/search?adv=1&qwd=Surgeon&qph=&qor=&qxl=&qtl=&d=&w=London%2C+UK&pp=10&sf=50000&st=&cty=&cti=&f=

One can have an FAJ account, registered to Mickey Mouse, (or whoever) that creates email alerts of search queries and another to make applications for jobs that can only go through FAJ.


In short it is straightforward to generate a record of using FAJ, applying for jobs via it, all whilst having NO FAJ account. It might be
rare to see a job that MUST be applied for via an account.

What stops a claimant opening a new account for each application that MUST go via FAJ and then deleting the account? Not convenient, but it's all a trade-off if claimants want to limit how much pesonal data DWP/Adzuna has that is associated to a unique account.

'Coach' Do you have a FAJ account
Claimant: Yes
(only to be logged into and used for job applications that must be through an FAJ account)

'Coach' Have you applied for any jobs through FAJ
Claimant: Yes, I applied for 7 and many more with other sites
(Each link to a job on FAJ has a ref, like 21228 from (findajob.dwp.gov.uk/details/21228) that goes to www.jobs.nhs.uk/xi/vacancy/?vac_ref=915085850)
So a claimant can say they have emails and references to the jobs applied for and just showing the name of the job title may be adequate, if they want actuals emails or screenshots, ask them to put the request in a ltter as you might forget and worry about a sanction. It is probable they will not give such a letter
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How many of you will actually use FaJ, given that registering is mandatory? 29 May 2018 00:19 #8076

  • osris
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Thanks for all your replies and advice. It’s good that we are now getting down to the practicalities and not just talking in the abstract.
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How many of you will actually use FaJ, given that registering is mandatory? 29 May 2018 00:32 #8079

osris wrote:
I just went to the FaJ site to see if I could just browse the jobs there, but I can’t unless I first create an account—or so the page I landed on said:

findajob.dwp.gov.uk/
So which part of the page that states: "You can search for jobs without setting up an account" can't you see?
Flotsam: People who are considered to be worthless or to have been rejected by society.
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How many of you will actually use FaJ, given that registering is mandatory? 29 May 2018 00:43 #8081

  • MrFrankZola
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osris wrote:
I just went to the FaJ site to see if I could just browse the jobs there, but I can’t unless I first create an account—or so the page I landed on said:

findajob.dwp.gov.uk/

Sorry but I will no longer invest my efforts on the topic of FAJ, when nonsense like above continues to be posted.

Farewell WC, it's me not you!
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How many of you will actually use FaJ, given that registering is mandatory? 29 May 2018 09:10 #8091

osris wrote:
Sorry, I see it now. I didn't see the search bar at the top of the page.
I can't believe you didn't see the search bar, after all it's just above the part that says: You can search for jobs without setting up an account.

Also, congratulations on ending MrFrankZola's involvement on this site. It looks like your little plan to cause as much disruption here as possible is slowly taking effect.
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How many of you will actually use FaJ, given that registering is mandatory? 29 May 2018 09:18 #8092

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Hi Frank Zola,

thats a real shame you are deciding to stop posting help on this issue because of someone elses thinking.

There are many on here who need help including me :)

jobber
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How many of you will actually use FaJ, given that registering is mandatory? 29 May 2018 12:07 #8107

osris wrote:
I think Frank left because of his disagreement with BB. I can’t see him leaving just because I couldn’t find the correct site.
Thankfully he hasn't left.

Though maybe you didn't see this post, osris:

MrFrankZola wrote:
osris wrote:
I just went to the FaJ site to see if I could just browse the jobs there, but I can’t unless I first create an account—or so the page I landed on said:

findajob.dwp.gov.uk/

Sorry but I will no longer invest my efforts on the topic of FAJ, when nonsense like above continues to be posted.

Farewell WC, it's me not you!
Flotsam: People who are considered to be worthless or to have been rejected by society.
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How many of you will actually use FaJ, given that registering is mandatory? 29 May 2018 12:41 #8110

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osris wrote:
As I said, I was probably the final straw.

Having had time to reflect on it, Frank probably now sees he was being a little hasty, hence his not leaving after all.

I think Tarquin, that it is best if you and I ignore each other from now on. I've tried to be civil with you and have "thanked" many of you posts, agreed with a lot of them, and have always been civil to you. But you seem to have a short fuse, and due to this have had to recourse to incivility towards me.

Hi osris, I have decided a more pragmatic approach is better. Like you, when a forum thread is not ideal I will create my own. I am puzzled though by the way you post on WC and at times I think you are being deliberately unhelpful. This is my own thinking and I own it and diving your intentions is really only for you. Whilst I do and have grumbled about your posts, you have prompted me think through some issues, so thanks for that.

Examples of threads I have started to address your and BB FAJ comments

DWP says "Claimants cannot be mandated to use the Find a Job website specifically"

[findajob.DWP.gov.uk] "DWP are the Data Controller of any personal data"

Would prefer to stay on the original threads, but when they become unwiedly I will create a new thread, to regain focus on evidence based facts and to rely upon sources and opinions that can be verfified independently of the person posting the comments.
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How many of you will actually use FaJ, given that registering is mandatory? 29 May 2018 14:55 #8131

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Frank, let me again assure you and others, that I am not here to cause trouble purposely. I admit that I have caused some trouble but it wasn’t intentional. I was just very frustrated at what I saw as a very laid-back approach by some members about what to say to work roaches if they pressure you for your FaJ password. I failed to understand that many here are old hands at all this, and so aren’t as anxious about being sanctioned as I am, hence the urgency and persistence of my various questionings here.

I’m glad that some of my post have given you food for thought, that was all I could ask of from any of you.

Your recent post confirming that we are not mandated to use FaJ has given me cause to relax, and not require me to ask any more questions. So to all intents and purposes, the reason I joined the forum has been satisfied.
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How many of you will actually use FaJ, given that registering is mandatory? 29 May 2018 15:49 #8135

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osris wrote:
Frank, let me again assure you and others, that I am not here to cause trouble purposely. I admit that I have caused some trouble but it wasn’t intentional. I was just very frustrated at what I saw as a very laid-back approach by some members about what to say to work roaches if they pressure you for your FaJ password. I failed to understand that many here are old hands at all this, and so aren’t as anxious about being sanctioned as I am, hence the urgency and persistence of my various questionings here.

I’m glad that some of my post have given you food for thought, that was all I could ask of from any of you.

Your recent post confirming that we are not mandated to use FaJ has given me cause to relax, and not require me to ask any more questions. So to all intents and purposes, the reason I joined the forum has been satisfied.
osris wrote:
Frank, let me again assure you and others, that I am not here to cause trouble purposely. I admit that I have caused some trouble but it wasn’t intentional. I was just very frustrated at what I saw as a very laid-back approach by some members about what to say to work roaches if they pressure you for your FaJ password. I failed to understand that many here are old hands at all this, and so aren’t as anxious about being sanctioned as I am, hence the urgency and persistence of my various questionings here.

I’m glad that some of my post have given you food for thought, that was all I could ask of from any of you.

Your recent post confirming that we are not mandated to use FaJ has given me cause to relax, and not require me to ask any more questions. So to all intents and purposes, the reason I joined the forum has been satisfied.

No worries I came to the party quite late, forums are great places to explore issues and the real lifeblood of them is new people unfamiliar with what to do about DWP situations they face. I tend avoid forums as I do not want to become and 'old hand' or be perceived as an 'expert', as that can stifle voices likes yours. So take time out if you wish and come back when you want. Apologies for not being so sympathetic to your posts on WC at times.
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