­
Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me
  • Page:
  • 1
  • 2

TOPIC: Should I refuse to sign on electronically?

Should I refuse to sign on electronically? 29 May 2018 01:26 #8085

  • osris
  • osris's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Banned
  • Posts: 108
  • Thank you received: 46
Should I refuse to sign on electronically?

I had no problem with doing so until I read this:

“You are correct in that the biometric software we use captures not just what the signature looks like but also how it has been written, including the angle of the stylus used, the pressure on the signing pad and the speed at which it is written. However, we don’t compare it to a fingerprint or use it as such – we just check that the signature captured when a claimant signs on the pad is validated by the system. There are a number of benefits to this, including reducing the scope for fraud. “

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/260445/response/636696/attach/html/3/FOI%201201.pdf.html

It all seems like a slippery slope to something potentially sinister. Apparently, though, you can opt out of it:

”There is no mandatory requirement for a claimant to sign electronically, although we would encourage them to do so. We do reassure anyone who is not sure of why we are now using the signing pads and what it means for them, but if they refuse, we do not insist. A claim would not be terminated or payment stopped if a claimant refused to sign electronically.”

www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/260445/response/636696/attach/html/3/FOI%201201.pdf.html

What do you think I should do? Am I overreacting?
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Should I refuse to sign on electronically? 29 May 2018 01:55 #8087

Here's a little known fact regarding electronic signing. I say it's a fact because it is something I do and so far there has been no problem.

I do not sign with my normal signature. I only "sign" my initials as I didn't feel comfortable having my real signature stored electronically god-knows-where.
Flotsam: People who are considered to be worthless or to have been rejected by society.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Spanner

Should I refuse to sign on electronically? 29 May 2018 08:50 #8090

  • jobber
  • jobber's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 806
  • Thank you received: 1281
Very sensible Tarquin. :)

I thought that technically if someone is a UC claimant there was no such thing as signing apart from what my roach gets me to sign every bloody week the same piece of crap with the same DO THIS! on the sheet. :evil:

Maybe the electronic signing is mainly for jsa claimants only .
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Should I refuse to sign on electronically? 29 May 2018 10:11 #8094

  • osris
  • osris's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Banned
  • Posts: 108
  • Thank you received: 46
It's too late for me--they already have my electronic signature.

I wonder if by some data protection law I can get them to destroy it?

Here is more info about our right to refuse to sign on electronically:

"Excellent FOI question asking about electronic signing pads and an equally informative reply from the DWP FOI Team. Download it and use it when you're asked to sign electronically.

My only concern about signing electronically is worrying whether it has actually triggered the payment successfully - I'd still prefer to have the clerk put my money through while I'm sat there to see it.

Question and response can be found here:
www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...#comment-59764

Basically, we do not have to use the electronic signing pad; they can only 'encourage' us. No sanction can be applied for refusal to use it. You can bet that the advisers will not mention this to you.

Interesting to note that not only does the pad record your signature, it also measures the angle of the pen, pressure of the writing and speed too. Big Brother knows no limitations, does it.

Another request was for all signing pad guidance issued to advisers, that can be found here
www.whatdotheyknow.com/reque...g_pad_guidance

Had a quick read through - most interesting. If your signatures don't match after 3 tries for any reason, they're going to want to know why AND expect you to provide more ID like driving licence etc. Also there is NO mention of electronic signing not being compulsory (did we really expect there would be!). Even the sample letter they give telling you all about it makes no mention that it's optional."

www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?445411-Electronic-Signing-you-don-t-need-to-use-it.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Should I refuse to sign on electronically? 29 May 2018 10:34 #8097

  • jobber
  • jobber's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 806
  • Thank you received: 1281
there is a data removal law google it.

if you gave consent initially to sign electronically then withdraw your consent.

The dwp are not the police, although they do their very best to try and come across just like it. :evil:

I would have questioned exactly why they wanted my sig in that format and would want to see how and why its being stored used processed etc in writing take advice and get back to them on it.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Should I refuse to sign on electronically? 29 May 2018 10:44 #8098

  • osris
  • osris's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Banned
  • Posts: 108
  • Thank you received: 46
The following seems to suggest that our electronic signatures are not “stored” on the system. If that is the case, I don't feel so wary about it:

“Interesting subject....although the Signature Capture System linked to the Digital Signing Pad does not record a signature as such, it simply builds up a Signature Profile of those signatures which a Civil Servant deems acceptable at the time the candidate accepts enrollment on the system.”

www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?445411-Electronic-Signing-you-don-t-need-to-use-it.&p=4740395&viewfull=1#post4740395

Edit: On reflection, it will be stored, or how else can the signature you write on the pad be matched with the signature you wrote on the pad when your signature was first programmed into the pad.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Should I refuse to sign on electronically? 29 May 2018 11:45 #8103

  • Catwoman
  • Catwoman's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Premium Member
  • Posts: 124
  • Thank you received: 185
Everytime I see someone electronicly sign on it seems to take at least 20 minutes.
I didn't like the fact that work coaches said it was mandatory to everyone one when its not and by gwad do they have a fit when you say its not mandatory and show them the relevant foi.
If work coaches didn't always lie to us I probably would go along with more things they say.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Should I refuse to sign on electronically? 29 May 2018 12:20 #8108

  • osris
  • osris's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Banned
  • Posts: 108
  • Thank you received: 46
Yes, it's the lying that makes people so confused. That's what they want, though. All anyone can do is play it by ear.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Should I refuse to sign on electronically? 29 May 2018 13:47 #8120

  • comply or die
  • comply or die's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 2225
  • Thank you received: 2190
Last time I claimed JSA a few years ago, I had to use that electronic pad and it always messed up. Took four, sometimes five attempts once and the coach over-rode it for me on the system. Funny that eh? Why don`t they just DO that instead of watching us try and write our signature on a slippery notepad that has to be within a certain angle! Have to say, I don`t trust writing my signature on anything other than a bank cheque nd these days I don`t write many personal cheques out!
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Should I refuse to sign on electronically? 29 May 2018 13:55 #8122

  • MrFrankZola
  • MrFrankZola's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Senior Member
  • Posts: 74
  • Thank you received: 149
osris wrote:
Yes, it's the lying that makes people so confused. That's what they want, though. All anyone can do is play it by ear.

There are FOI disclosures, on www.whatdotheyknow.com/body/dwp, that suggest electronic signing cannot be mandated. Would suggest avoiding outright use of the word "refuse" or language like "I refuse", as when talking to a 'Coach' it will probably provoke conflict and it also gives the 'Coach' the chance to ask the claimant why they "refuse" and too often the claimant may not have a well thought out reason backed up by any evidence.

It can be better to say llikes of 'I prefer to provide my signature on paper with a pen' and maybe a print-out of a DWP disclosure or letter from www.whatdotheyknow.com/body/dwp to show the 'coach' why one prefers not to use the capture device.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: comply or die, El-dudeareno

Should I refuse to sign on electronically? 29 May 2018 14:01 #8123

  • MrFrankZola
  • MrFrankZola's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Senior Member
  • Posts: 74
  • Thank you received: 149
osris wrote:
The following seems to suggest that our electronic signatures are not “stored” on the system. If that is the case, I don't feel so wary about it:

“Interesting subject....although the Signature Capture System linked to the Digital Signing Pad does not record a signature as such, it simply builds up a Signature Profile of those signatures which a Civil Servant deems acceptable at the time the candidate accepts enrollment on the system.”

www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?445411-Electronic-Signing-you-don-t-need-to-use-it.&p=4740395&viewfull=1#post4740395

Edit: On reflection, it will be stored, or how else can the signature you write on the pad be matched with the signature you wrote on the pad when your signature was first programmed into the pad.

"Signature Profile" is refering to the biometric data generated when using a signature capture device, I would be far more weary of biometric data being retained than a signature on a piece of paper. With the advent of GDPR and the May 23rd 2018 Data Protection Act, retaining a biometric "Signature Profile" will probably need fully informed OPT-IN consent, that can be declined without consequence.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Should I refuse to sign on electronically? 29 May 2018 15:12 #8132

  • osris
  • osris's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Banned
  • Posts: 108
  • Thank you received: 46
MrFrankZola wrote:
osris wrote:
Yes, it's the lying that makes people so confused. That's what they want, though. All anyone can do is play it by ear.

There are FOI disclosures, on www.whatdotheyknow.com/body/dwp, that suggest electronic signing cannot be mandated. Would suggest avoiding outright use of the word "refuse" or language like "I refuse", as when talking to a 'Coach' it will probably provoke conflict and it also gives the 'Coach' the chance to ask the claimant why they "refuse" and too often the claimant may not have a well thought out reason backed up by any evidence.

It can be better to say llikes of 'I prefer to provide my signature on paper with a pen' and maybe a print-out of a DWP disclosure or letter from www.whatdotheyknow.com/body/dwp to show the 'coach' why one prefers not to use the capture device.

Yes, Frank, “refuse” would only make the work roaches angry, and you could possibly be marked out as a “troublemaker” by them.

I warned a few people here that they should try not to be aggressive and confrontational with jobcentre staff as it could get them sanctioned at some point.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Should I refuse to sign on electronically? 29 May 2018 15:43 #8134

  • comply or die
  • comply or die's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 2225
  • Thank you received: 2190
I`ve found in the past that asking a work coach a straight out question gets a good reply. After all, they are relaying what they are told/trained to relay to us (the claimant/customer) so sometimes it`s better to BE normal and say things like, "Hmmm, this machine is not playing ball....any chance we could use a pen!" They can only say no, but I know for a fact that they can override the system, so if they are up against time (seeing someone else after they see us) they will do that to hurry things along.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Should I refuse to sign on electronically? 29 May 2018 16:30 #8139

osris wrote:
Yes, Frank, “refuse” would only make the work roaches angry, and you could possibly be marked out as a “troublemaker” by them.

I warned a few people here that they should try not to be aggressive and confrontational with jobcentre staff as it could get them sanctioned at some point, and was accused by BB of being a DWP mole, as words like “aggressive” when applied to jobseekers is only ever used by jobcentre staff—according to BB that is.

To me the word “aggressive” is in the public domain, and I will continue to use it here when appropriate, despite any bullying tactics against me by BB and others.

I, for someone with an apparently "short fuse", have never lost my temper or been aggressive to any member of the jobcentre. Work coaches often get angry/aggressive themselves when you calmly make a stance against whatever crap they are proposing, or point out any errors they have made.

A perfect example was last year when one particularly nasty piece of work became very angry and flustered when. after he drew up an updated claimant commitment for me. I politely told him I wouldn't sign it there and then as I wanted a second opinion before signing it. I was threatened with sanctions and had my claim suspended because of this. A swift complaint soon had my claim un-suspended but as ever no action was taken against this work roach.

Many roaches will do whatever they can to make certain claimants aggressive, it's all to their advantage and usually ends with that claimant being thrown out of the jobcentre and having his benefits stopped. Oh, apart from that one occasion when I saw a claimant give his roach a good right hook...!


One more thing:
osris wrote:
To me the word “aggressive” is in the public domain, and I will continue to use it here when appropriate, despite any bullying tactics against me by BB and others.

Time to move on from all of this.
Flotsam: People who are considered to be worthless or to have been rejected by society.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Catwoman

Should I refuse to sign on electronically? 29 May 2018 16:35 #8140

  • moogle
  • moogle's Avatar
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Elite Member
  • 4 yrs to freedom
  • Posts: 173
  • Thank you received: 162
quote - I`ve found in the past that asking a work coach a straight out question gets a good reply. After all, they are relaying what they are told/trained to relay to us (the claimant/customer) so sometimes it`s better to BE normal and say things like, "Hmmm, this machine is not playing ball....any chance we could use a pen!"

Well, I made the mistake of thinking I had no choice.

At one signing, the electronic sig kept being rejected and I asked, "Is it possible to opt out of using the pad?"

The adviser replied with an outright, "No"
Toads - Philip Larkin
Why should I let the toad work, Squat on my life?
Can't I use my wit as a pitchfork And drive the brute off?
Six days of the week it soils,With its sickening poison -
Just for paying a few bills! That's out of proportion...
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Should I refuse to sign on electronically? 31 May 2018 18:20 #8243

  • Catwoman
  • Catwoman's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Premium Member
  • Posts: 124
  • Thank you received: 185
During my appointment today my horrifying new wc was demanding when she does new cc that I sign it electronicly when I told her it's not mandatory she said she will send it to a decision maker.
Work coachs don't give a damn about freedom of information.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Should I refuse to sign on electronically? 31 May 2018 18:36 #8244

  • comply or die
  • comply or die's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 2225
  • Thank you received: 2190
It will always be a case of `them and us` I`m afraid, having to point out to them that they are wrong, but they can`t admit it.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Should I refuse to sign on electronically? 31 May 2018 19:05 #8246

  • Benefit Bolshie
  • Benefit Bolshie's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 413
  • Thank you received: 729
Catwoman wrote:
During my appointment today my horrifying new wc was demanding when she does new cc that I sign it electronicly when I told her it's not mandatory she said she will send it to a decision maker.
Work coachs don't give a damn about freedom of information.

Sorry to hear of your latest encounter.

They crossed the line last week in their treatment of you, and unless or until you put your foot down with a firm hand they will continue, increase even, their vile treatment of you.

I’m not sure if you have sent a letter of complaint, or are considering sending one. It would appear you haven’t or I would expect their treatment of you to have mellowed. At least it might have been mentioned.

Was nothing of your other issues raised today?

What’s the next move; theirs or yours?
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Should I refuse to sign on electronically? 31 May 2018 20:11 #8249

  • Catwoman
  • Catwoman's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Premium Member
  • Posts: 124
  • Thank you received: 185
Benefit Bolshie wrote:
Catwoman wrote:
During my appointment today my horrifying new wc was demanding when she does new cc that I sign it electronicly when I told her it's not mandatory she said she will send it to a decision maker.
Work coachs don't give a damn about freedom of information.


Sorry to hear of your latest encounter.

They crossed the line last week in their treatment of you, and unless or until you put your foot down with a firm hand they will continue, increase even, their vile treatment of you.

I’m not sure if you have sent a letter of complaint, or are considering sending one. It would appear you haven’t or I would expect their treatment of you to have mellowed. At least it might have been mentioned.

Was nothing of your other issues raised today?

What’s the next move; theirs or yours?

I've wrote in detail whats happend today in work and health tread, I didn't send a complaint letter as I was waiting what the treatment I would recieve today would be. I would most definitely be writing one now but I don't know who to give it to as the manager is trash aswell and seems to be encouraging this treatment.
They are blaming me for being on jsa continuously for 10 years when the fact is I've been on all their courses, programs and it didn't get me anywhere. But as my motivating wc and manager said it's MY fault I'm unemployed it's easy to get a job.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Should I refuse to sign on electronically? 31 May 2018 20:17 #8250

Catwoman wrote:
I've wrote in detail whats happend today in work and health tread, I didn't send a complaint letter as I was waiting what the treatment I would recieve today would be. I would most definitely be writing one now but I don't know who to give it to as the manager is trash aswell and seems to be encouraging this treatment.
They are blaming me for being on jsa continuously for 10 years when the fact is I've been on all their courses, programs and it didn't get me anywhere. But as my motivating wc and manager said it's MY fault I'm unemployed it's easy to get a job.
Sorry to hear about all the crap you're having to put up with, Catwoman, it makes my blood boil the way these cretins treat people.

Regarding letters of complaint, hopefully BB will help you with that, I've found it's a waste of time complaining to the manager of your jobcentre as of course they all stick together even when some of the staff are overstepping the mark. I found it much more resourceful to send complaints to the district manager and local MP. A shame Mary isn't here as she's an expert on how to deal with this kind of behaviour...
Flotsam: People who are considered to be worthless or to have been rejected by society.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: comply or die, Catwoman
  • Page:
  • 1
  • 2
­