­
Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me
  • Page:
  • 1
  • 2

TOPIC: Can you be forced to go to a job club?

Can you be forced to go to a job club? 12 Jun 2018 13:57 #8598

  • Tufty
  • Tufty's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Junior Member
  • Posts: 30
  • Thank you received: 17
My work coach gave me some leaflets about job clubs and said I should go to one. She didn’t order me to, she just said “should”. But that could mean both an order and a suggestion.

I think it was just a suggestion but I want to be sure, so can anyone advice on this?
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Can you be forced to go to a job club? 12 Jun 2018 14:42 #8603

  • comply or die
  • comply or die's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 2051
  • Thank you received: 1931
Main point here Tufty is, did she record it on your claimant commitment? If not, then it`s not something you must `obey`. I suspect these leaflets are for information only and for you to decide whether they would be beneficial to you. Are there any listed that are nearby for you? Are they a bus ride away and would cost you money to attend? Check your CC for anything that states - "I will attend venues or groups to help me find employment" incase she refers to this by saying she gave you the leaflets because THAT was written within your agreement. Just check it to be sure. If there are no statements like this, then I would say you are safe to ignore the leaflets, although attending a job club for a few hours once a week/fortnight/month just to use their free services could be money saving for you if you need print-outs or free computer use! But determine if it`s actually going to cost you money to go before deciding.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: jobber

Can you be forced to go to a job club? 12 Jun 2018 15:18 #8605

  • Tufty
  • Tufty's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Junior Member
  • Posts: 30
  • Thank you received: 17
Thanks.

No my CC doesn't say anything about job clubs etc. If I went to one out of curiosity (there is one not far from me) will the job club notify my work coach that I went to it, causing her at some future date, when my CC is being updated, to include job club attendance on it. She may do that and refuse to remove it if I say I don't want it there. She may say that what's the problem seeing as I went to it once and didn't find any fault with it then.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Can you be forced to go to a job club? 12 Jun 2018 15:29 #8606

  • comply or die
  • comply or die's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 2051
  • Thank you received: 1931
If the job club are independent of the job centre, I think you will be fine. Some of the leaflets I`ve found in my job centre are just independently run either by charities or funded by local council initiatives. If it`s directly linked to the job centre (read the leaflet - does the small print state a private company or anything on it relating to jobcentreplus? ) This should give you an idea of who runs/funds it. Google them.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: jobber, Tufty

Can you be forced to go to a job club? 12 Jun 2018 16:30 #8608

  • jobber
  • jobber's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 719
  • Thank you received: 1124
You sometimes have to sign a form when you arrive but not when you leave at least not in my experience.

As Comply rightly say's if its not in your CC then they will have to request you go in a more straight forward fashion.

They do this kind of crap to try and cause doubt and worry,i just ask them point blank! Do i have to go or not ? Now show me as to why etc. :evil:
If there are like 50 care homes for example at this gathering and you have zero experience or interest etc you could argue the point just to make their life a little awkward.


Don't forget to reclaim travel costs from joke shop.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: comply or die, El-dudeareno, Tufty

Can you be forced to go to a job club? 02 Jul 2018 10:44 #9086

  • archangel
  • archangel's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Premium Member
  • Posts: 96
  • Thank you received: 95
Will going to a job club make JCP staff lay off trying to pressure you into bending over backwards to look for non-existent jobs or trying to force you on to various work schemes? In other words, can it be used as a way to avoid JCP staff hassling you? If so, I'll start going to one.

By the way, at job clubs do you have to apply for jobs, and what will happen if you don't?
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: jruti

Can you be forced to go to a job club? 02 Jul 2018 11:20 #9088

  • Benefit Bolshie
  • Benefit Bolshie's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 413
  • Thank you received: 715
Tuffy.
It would be interesting to know a bit more about the job club you have been invited to join or get involved with.

What services does it propose to provide?
Is there a fixed time, eg. daily, weekly and how long must you keep going once begun?
Is it something you feel would suit or benefit you?
Does it have a name or web address that could be checked on?

You don't appear to have been mandated therefore can only assume it's voluntary.

Usually, any time spent on such activities is deducted from the time your commitment says you should be spending on seeking or preparing for work. Your work coach will obviously have to consent to you taking part for this to apply.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: comply or die, El-dudeareno

Can you be forced to go to a job club? 03 Jul 2018 10:31 #9099

  • Tufty
  • Tufty's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Junior Member
  • Posts: 30
  • Thank you received: 17
Benefit Bolshie I wasn’t told much about them really. I was just given some leaflets telling me the benefits of going to them and with a few quotes from people who had been and found them helpful. I don’t know if these quotes are from genuine people or made up to seem so. The leaflet said that more information can be given if you come along to the centre it is held in. But I didn’t want to go in case when I got there I was forced into joining up. Now that I know it is voluntary I threw the leaflets in the bin.

Archangel I would go to one too if doing so would take pressure off me at the jobcentre. Not that I am as pressured as others I read about on this forum. But if going to a job club will count as “actively seeking work” and keep the jobcentre of my back then it might be a good thing.

What do people here think about that? Going to keep the jobcentre off your back? Is that too good to be true? It’s not the looking for work that bothers me it’s the nagging of the jobcentre to spread my job searches wider that I don’t like. If at a job club I can search for jobs in my own way and pace and not be pressured into applying for unsuitable ones, then that would be good. If that is how it all works.
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Can you be forced to go to a job club? 03 Jul 2018 11:26 #9100

  • comply or die
  • comply or die's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 2051
  • Thank you received: 1931
I`m wondering if they have a phone number tufty where you could dial 141 before their number to hide YOUR number so it can`t be traced and ask a few questions before making your mind up? You could ask things like:

Q: Hi, I`m calling speculatively to ask if I attend your job club, am I expected to attend when told to or is it a drop in job club?
Q:Do I need to join this job club through job centre plus or are people allowed to use your facilities without any ties to the job centre?
Q: Would the job searching I do while attending count towards my 35 hour a week job search if you are linked to job centre plus?

And anything else you want to know before going. I wouldn`t feel right being manipulated into having to attend one of these places either but would use it if it counted towards my 35hr job search and let my work coach know this, otherwise I wouldn't be wasting my time. However if all the above are answered to your liking, it may be a positive move, but with all these things, it`s better to research first rather than regret it later.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Tufty

Can you be forced to go to a job club? 03 Jul 2018 17:44 #9105

  • Tufty
  • Tufty's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Junior Member
  • Posts: 30
  • Thank you received: 17
I forgot to see if there was a phone number before I threw the leaflets away. There probably was.

Is there anyone on this forum who has been to one?
The administrator has disabled public write access.

Can you be forced to go to a job club? 03 Jul 2018 18:37 #9108

  • comply or die
  • comply or die's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 2051
  • Thank you received: 1931
It`s a good idea to hang onto these `leaflets` even though you don`t intend to act on them just incase a few days later you want/need to look at them again. I used to do the same with shop receipts but I hold onto them now at least for a few days to make sure I haven't bought a pig in a poke and need to return the item!
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: jobber

Can you be forced to go to a job club? 10 Jul 2018 14:23 #9240

  • jruti
  • jruti's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • New Member
  • Posts: 4
  • Thank you received: 9
I can offer some advice here, since I volunteer to run a job club at a local charity on Monday morning and afternoon. Your Job Centre will expect you to regularly attend and apply for jobs if they refer you to a Job Club. You will not be left alone (for that matter neither are other volunteers), and for that reason a lot of our clients choose to refer themselves, and take advantage of the help and advice, free computers and printing, etc, that we offer. For our part, we don't even expect clients to turn up and job search for a full two hour session. But we (the Project Manager) consider it reasonable that clients carry out some job search, even if they require one to one assistance for whatever reason (eg. learning difficulties). You will not be forced to apply for anything that is unsuitable, make sure they know of any health or travel issues you have. Comply and Die mentions that charities are more independent so the client is better off. Unfortunately we have dismissed clients for non-attendance or non-participation and they have still faced benefit sanctions. Your Job Centre will always react like this if you give them the opportunity, so be warned!
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: comply or die, Verc

Can you be forced to go to a job club? 11 Jul 2018 13:24 #9245

  • Benefit Bolshie
  • Benefit Bolshie's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 413
  • Thank you received: 715
Jruti wrote: I can offer some advice here, since I volunteer to run a job club at a local charity on Monday morning and afternoon.
Thank you for responding to this particular thread. Your input is most welcome since you can speak with a degree of authority being, as you are, someone who runs a job club, albeit voluntarily. As with many responses, however, yours’ has raised more questions that you are in a position to answer or clarify.


Your Job Centre will expect you to regularly attend and apply for jobs if they refer you to a Job Club.
How does the Jobcentre (JCP) refer a claimant to your Job Club? Is it by means of a Jobseekers’ Direction?


You will not be left alone (for that matter neither are other volunteers), and for that reason a lot of our clients choose to refer themselves, and take advantage of the help and advice, free computers and printing, etc, that we offer.
This would suggest that you have a programme or a particular set of activities, agreed with JCP, in place for claimants to agree to, undertake and participate in. Do you have a copy of such an agreement or undertaking?

Would I be right to assume that ‘volunteers’ and ‘clients who choose to refer themselves’ are also expected to undertake and participate in all activities set out?


For our part, we don't even expect clients to turn up and job search for a full two hour session. But we (the Project Manager) consider it reasonable that clients carry out some job search, even if they require one to one assistance for whatever reason (eg. learning difficulties).
Does this mean that ‘clients’ who are referred by JCP, those who ‘volunteer’ and those who ‘refer themselves’ are treated the same and subject to the same level of participation? What would be the consequences, for example, for a ‘volunteer’ who chooses to stop volunteering an stop coming to the Job Club?


You will not be forced to apply for anything that is unsuitable, make sure they know of any health or travel issues you have.
Who decides what is unsuitable to apply for? Can you overrule JCP work coaches on this? Who are ‘they’ that you ensure knows of any health or travel issues? Does this include questioning or correcting ESA wrong decisions taken against claimants who are patiently obviously not fit for work?


Unfortunately we have dismissed clients for non-attendance or non-participation and they have still faced benefit sanctions.
This would suggest that you do have attendance and participation requirements and that it applies to all ‘clients’ whether referred or voluntary. How is this compatible with your earlier comment that ‘For our part, we don't even expect clients to turn up and job search for a full two hour session’.

Does this also mean that you report client attendance and participation to JCP and that your reports are acted on by JCP?

How many of the ‘clients’ who have ‘volunteered’ to attend your Job Club have you felt it necessary to ‘dismiss’, thereby giving JCP the opportunity to subsequently sanction them?
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: comply or die, El-dudeareno

Can you be forced to go to a job club? 11 Jul 2018 13:37 #9246

  • comply or die
  • comply or die's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 2051
  • Thank you received: 1931
jruti wrote: You will not be forced to apply for anything that is unsuitable, make sure they know of any health or travel issues you have. Comply and Die mentions that charities are more independent so the client is better off. Unfortunately we have dismissed clients for non-attendance or non-participation and they have still faced benefit sanctions. Your Job Centre will always react like this if you give them the opportunity, so be warned!

Sounds to me that job clubs (perhaps not all depending on who runs them) are linked to JCP and anyone walking through the door won`t be as invisible as they thought they might be as regards attending either voluntarily, or using the job club as a drop in facility. Which is a shame because conditionality is the one thing that sours the taste of such adventures. Anyone with ANY health problems attending such facilities should be mindful that their problems are not overlooked. Restrictions to `expected hours` should be noted on your current JSA agreement or CC Claimant Commitment. THOSE are what determine your actions agreed to and nothing else.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: El-dudeareno

Can you be forced to go to a job club? 11 Jul 2018 15:24 #9247

  • Searcher
  • Searcher's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • New Member
  • Posts: 8
  • Thank you received: 6
BB mentioned Jobseeker's Directions. Here is a decision that some might like to readl:

www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/uk/cases/UKUT/AAC/2015/67.html&query=CJSA/1455/2014
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Paul-UB40

Can you be forced to go to a job club? 11 Jul 2018 16:05 #9248

  • Benefit Bolshie
  • Benefit Bolshie's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 413
  • Thank you received: 715
Thanks for that link Searcher clarifying the legality and/or appropriateness of a Jobseeker’s Direction.

It would be well worth taking note of it.

I was trying to ascertain from Jruti, through the answers that I hope he gives to the points I raise, whether or not he is aware of the law, or that he may be complicit in illegal activity by facilitating the sanctioning of claimants in the way he ‘unfortunately’ dismisses ‘clients’ without due regard for the consequences.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: comply or die, El-dudeareno

Can you be forced to go to a job club? 11 Jul 2018 16:53 #9249

  • comply or die
  • comply or die's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 2051
  • Thank you received: 1931
Quote from Searcher`s link:

I agree with Ms. East’s submission that there was no evidence to show why this Group Information Session would have assisted this claimant to find employment or to improve his prospects of being employed, as required by section 19A(11) of the 1995 Act. There was nothing to suggest that the Jobseeker's Direction was linked to an action improve the claimant’s chances of finding work, or that it was personalised and appropriate for the claimant or, indeed, that it was related to labour market activities. Nor was there any evidence to suggest that the issue of the Jobseeker's Direction was tailored to the claimant’s specific requirements. Given the general terms of the Jobseeker's Direction taken together with the nature and content of the Group Information Session, these were matters which should have been considered by the tribunal. Its failure to do so amounted to an error of law.

"That it was related to labour market activities".....so in other words, each claimant should have directions tailored to their specific NEEDS and CIRCUMSTANCES and not given the belief that attending these mandated group sessions will benefit them in any way accept as a punishment for not having a job.

The law (like it or not) is the unemployed persons friend in many ways because failures happen and only cross referencing those failures wins battles.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: El-dudeareno

Can you be forced to go to a job club? 11 Jul 2018 22:03 #9250

  • Benefit Bolshie
  • Benefit Bolshie's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Member
  • Posts: 413
  • Thank you received: 715
Exactly right CoD.

Its all the more disappointing when the DWP can rely on 'volunteers' to do their dirty work for them.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: comply or die

Can you be forced to go to a job club? 12 Jul 2018 11:50 #9256

  • archangel
  • archangel's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • Premium Member
  • Posts: 96
  • Thank you received: 95
It looks like it’s best to keep well away from going to a job club off you own bat. I wonder how many poor sods have found themselves in sanctions territory due to their work roach suggesting they volunteer to take part in job club search activity? Trust the DWP to turn voluntary job search activity into a “requirement”.

I wonder where Jruti has disappeared to? I was looking forward to his/her answers to BB’s questions.
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: comply or die, El-dudeareno

Can you be forced to go to a job club? 12 Jul 2018 15:00 #9260

  • Searcher
  • Searcher's Avatar
  • OFFLINE
  • New Member
  • Posts: 8
  • Thank you received: 6
Should they try to slip something they shouldn't into your jobseeker's agreement this very short UT decision may be of assistance:

www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKUT/AAC/2015/703.html
The administrator has disabled public write access.
The following user(s) said Thank You: comply or die, archangel
  • Page:
  • 1
  • 2
­