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TOPIC: What will you say to your work coach when you deny access to FAJ?

What will you say to your work coach when you deny access to FAJ? 18 May 2018 23:39 #7667

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What will you say to your work coach when you deny access to FAJ?

It would be interesting to hear what individual people here will say. I haven’t a clue what I will say. I need to say something that is credible and not antagonistic. I have to think of a reason that is convincing and doesn’t make me look as if I don’t want to give them access because I’m lazy and haven’t bothered to apply for any jobs there. This is what they will think about probably the majority of people who refuse them access. I want to avoid giving them that that impression. :ohmy:

At the same time, I also want to avoid “lame” reasons such as allowing access will threaten my privacy and could cause spamming and virus attacks etc. I don’t think anyone would fall for that one these days—least of all jobcentre staff. :lol:

No, it has to be a convincing and reasonable reason, and one devoid of any tone of anger or “working class hero” rebelliousness—which will just aggravate the DWP (who, unfortunately, we depend on for our financial existence). :woohoo:

Can I request that all suggestions and ideas be serious ones? I am aware of the comic potential of such a request. :whistle:
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What will you say to your work coach when you deny access to FAJ? 19 May 2018 07:45 #7669

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Depends on how they want access to FaJ I think.

If it's like with UJM (which doesn't seem very likely) I would do the same people suggested for UJM.

But if you have to give up your login info or use a IAD to show a work coach your search history, then I would just tell them you have not got the login information with you. You use password manager to keep your login secure. Record the conversation and if it leads to a sanction doubt, enjoy beating them :)
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What will you say to your work coach when you deny access to FAJ? 19 May 2018 08:17 #7671

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I`m sat here thinking the answer could be within the very long detailed freedom of information requests and DWP answers to those, but it`s also just as likely not to be. And that could be by design and not meant to be discovered on purpose as it seems much of what has transpired so far is not crystal clear, or at least, saying something like "DWP do not ask jobseekers to use this site if they do not wish to". If anyone with more time on their hands can find this little gem within the belly of the beast, please print it here, or forever hold your peace!


osris is right though, it`s having a clear DWP regulation which gives us the answer, not coming from any other source. It MUST be clear and decisive from DWP themselves which can be produced. Anything else is futile.
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What will you say to your work coach when you deny access to FAJ? 19 May 2018 08:35 #7672

It's in their own directive, as stated here: www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/479339/response/1158772/attach/html/6/Annex%202.pdf.html
1. As part of making use of the resources available to them to look for work, we can reasonably expect most claimants to make best use of Find a job or other jobsites.

They will NOT have my login details if I do use FAJ, but they can have a screenshot of any jobs I've applied for on there, they certainly won't be getting a screenshot of my "job views" on the site. I'll provide them like I showed before my gmail headers of jobs applied. Other stuff like looking in newspapers/contacting friends etc they'll have to take my word for that.

My next signing appointment is this Tuesday, I have a different work roach that day from my usual, so it could be an interesting conversation...
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What will you say to your work coach when you deny access to FAJ? 19 May 2018 08:41 #7673

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Will say something like this:

There is no need as you dont need that bundle of crap website to check what ive done to be looking for work.

Here's all my stuff, suck it up :cheer:



"reasonably expect most claimants to make best use of Find a job or other job-sites."
Then if they have an ounce of common sense and on past events we know they dont! the above quote should be taken into consideration and applied appropriately to claimants who dont show their job search activities in "reasonable way"

The regs still state we can show job search activity in any-way/form that we like! and thats not changed. :)
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What will you say to your work coach when you deny access to FAJ? 19 May 2018 10:07 #7676

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Noted from the same link Tarquin posted from:

2. However, there will be instances where claimants aren’t able to use Find a job or
other jobsites or may not appear to be using these sites to their best advantage.
3. In these instances, you may need to search for suitable vacancies on behalf of a
claimant and in some instances, formally require claimants to apply for these jobs.
For example:
 the claimant isn’t yet able to make the best use of self-help vacancy channels
(if this is the case, support should be provided to address the need); or
 there are doubts about the activities the claimant says they are doing. For
example, they claim to be going online, but say that no suitable vacancies are
available

This seems to say they will apply or help us to apply for jobs if they feel we are not using the sites to best advantage, or not using them at all. So although we could use the "We reasonable expect most people to make the best of Find a Job"....I fear it will be a small win and then a continual battle of wits. Not really surprising though as this is how they like to play things. If we don`t WANT to use this new site, we should be able to say so without intimidation and ongoing dispute over it. I think that`s what we all want and need to know. Hopefully some clarity will appear from somewhere that gives us that needle in a haystack moment of glee.
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What will you say to your work coach when you deny access to FAJ? 19 May 2018 10:20 #7677

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In the below circumstance i see them being able to apply their use of "reasonable" in a logical way in that 2,3,4, could be made to apply.

This would indicate a way of helping the more vulnerable lacking in IT skills etc and at the same time using that as an excuse as rounding up a fresh Pen of sheep to sanction when ready. :evil:

Wolfs in sheep clothing, the green and yellow woolly type sheep centre plus this way ......... :lol:



"If we don`t WANT to use this new site, we should be able to say so without intimidation and ongoing dispute over it."
That is the clear answer we want and an FOI would settle it,i dont fancy putting in another though as already have a few against my name,someone no doubt will soon as they get bullied into this.


Noted from the same link Tarquin posted from:

2. However, there will be instances where claimants aren’t able to use Find a job or
other jobsites or may not appear to be using these sites to their best advantage.
3. In these instances, you may need to search for suitable vacancies on behalf of a
claimant and in some instances, formally require claimants to apply for these jobs.
For example:
 the claimant isn’t yet able to make the best use of self-help vacancy channels
(if this is the case, support should be provided to address the need); or
 there are doubts about the activities the claimant says they are doing. For
example, they claim to be going online, but say that no suitable vacancies are
available
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What will you say to your work coach when you deny access to FAJ? 19 May 2018 10:22 #7678

osris wrote:
I need to say something that is credible and not antagonistic. I have to think of a reason that is convincing and doesn’t make me look as if I don’t want to give them access because I’m lazy and haven’t bothered to apply for any jobs there.

They cannot demand "access" to that jobsite or any other jobsite you're registered with. You can choose to show them any of your activity on the site should you prefer... Remember they will try to bullshit you as much as possible, usually under the threat of sanction. I'll be telling them that so far it's early days with this site, I'm not that impressed and having checked for jobs there it isn't as comprehensive and easy to navigate as other sites like Indeed so will continue with the other sites for the time being. As their own direction states they expect you to use FAJ OR any other jobsites... They may try to put in your CC that you register with FAJ, but they cannot direct you to give them "access" just like they could not direct you to give them access to UJM.

osris wrote:
At the same time, I also want to avoid “lame” reasons such as allowing access will threaten my privacy and could cause spamming and virus attacks etc. I don’t think anyone would fall for that one these days—least of all jobcentre staff. :lol:

The only way they could have direct access to the site is if you give them your password. That is a threat to your privacy and it isn't a lame excuse. If they demand your log in details ask to speak to the jobcentre manager or your regional manager.
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What will you say to your work coach when you deny access to FAJ? 19 May 2018 11:32 #7680

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Ducray wrote:
Depends on how they want access to FaJ I think.

If it's like with UJM (which doesn't seem very likely) I would do the same people suggested for UJM.

But if you have to give up your login info or use a IAD to show a work coach your search history, then I would just tell them you have not got the login information with you. You use password manager to keep your login secure. Record the conversation and if it leads to a sanction doubt, enjoy beating them :)

The password manager ploy sounds good, in that if you give them your master password they will then have access to all the logins to other sites you login to. They couldn’t reasonably expect that of you.

How do you go about recording the interview? Would you tell them you were doing so? Or do it secretly?
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What will you say to your work coach when you deny access to FAJ? 19 May 2018 11:38 #7681

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Tarquin_Flotsam wrote:
It's in their own directive, as stated here: www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/479339/response/1158772/attach/html/6/Annex%202.pdf.html
1. As part of making use of the resources available to them to look for work, we can reasonably expect most claimants to make best use of Find a job or other jobsites.

They will NOT have my login details if I do use FAJ, but they can have a screenshot of any jobs I've applied for on there, they certainly won't be getting a screenshot of my "job views" on the site. I'll provide them like I showed before my gmail headers of jobs applied. Other stuff like looking in newspapers/contacting friends etc they'll have to take my word for that.

My next signing appointment is this Tuesday, I have a different work roach that day from my usual, so it could be an interesting conversation...

The “or” in the statement above does sound as if we could use that as a “get out” clause—assuming that the DWP play by their own rules.
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What will you say to your work coach when you deny access to FAJ? 19 May 2018 11:40 #7682

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jobber wrote:
The regs still state we can show job search activity in any-way/form that we like! and thats not changed. :)

Have you got a link to that?
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What will you say to your work coach when you deny access to FAJ? 19 May 2018 11:42 #7683

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There is also the `Cookie` thing as regards to allowing cookies on our own home computers, but that isn`t enough to stop them asking us to log in on THEIR IED`s, so probably a mute point. The password security argument sounds a good one. I would worry that submitting my password on one of their machines would then be logged somewhere by the Find a Job/DWP Cookies? I`m no IT expert, but Cookies are tracking devices that record preferences etc....

So I think I would use the password/cookie argument as regards their own PC`s, but would still like a failsafe point for not using the site full stop in favour of using other sites. It really is frustrating that people who sign on are faced with this childish nonsense when job search evidence is job search evidence and shouldn`t rely on us using one particular website because it`s linked to DWP. That alone tells us it`s a ball & chain.
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What will you say to your work coach when you deny access to FAJ? 19 May 2018 11:47 #7684

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comply or die wrote:
Noted from the same link Tarquin posted from:

2. However, there will be instances where claimants aren’t able to use Find a job or
other jobsites or may not appear to be using these sites to their best advantage.
3. In these instances, you may need to search for suitable vacancies on behalf of a
claimant and in some instances, formally require claimants to apply for these jobs.
For example:
 the claimant isn’t yet able to make the best use of self-help vacancy channels
(if this is the case, support should be provided to address the need); or
 there are doubts about the activities the claimant says they are doing. For
example, they claim to be going online, but say that no suitable vacancies are
available

This seems to say they will apply or help us to apply for jobs if they feel we are not using the sites to best advantage, or not using them at all. So although we could use the "We reasonable expect most people to make the best of Find a Job"....I fear it will be a small win and then a continual battle of wits. Not really surprising though as this is how they like to play things. If we don`t WANT to use this new site, we should be able to say so without intimidation and ongoing dispute over it. I think that`s what we all want and need to know. Hopefully some clarity will appear from somewhere that gives us that needle in a haystack moment of glee.

Yes, denying them access sounds like it could make them find jobs for you to apply to and force you to apply for them etc.

The fact that we are all in doubt about exactly what to do, indicates that they don’t want us to deny access—if they did, they would be 100% clear about it.
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What will you say to your work coach when you deny access to FAJ? 19 May 2018 12:04 #7685

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Tarquin_Flotsam wrote:
osris wrote:
I need to say something that is credible and not antagonistic. I have to think of a reason that is convincing and doesn’t make me look as if I don’t want to give them access because I’m lazy and haven’t bothered to apply for any jobs there.

They cannot demand "access" to that jobsite or any other jobsite you're registered with. You can choose to show them any of your activity on the site should you prefer... Remember they will try to bullshit you as much as possible, usually under the threat of sanction. I'll be telling them that so far it's early days with this site, I'm not that impressed and having checked for jobs there it isn't as comprehensive and easy to navigate as other sites like Indeed so will continue with the other sites for the time being. As their own direction states they expect you to use FAJ OR any other jobsites... They may try to put in your CC that you register with FAJ, but they cannot direct you to give them "access" just like they could not direct you to give them access to UJM.

osris wrote:
At the same time, I also want to avoid “lame” reasons such as allowing access will threaten my privacy and could cause spamming and virus attacks etc. I don’t think anyone would fall for that one these days—least of all jobcentre staff. :lol:

The only way they could have direct access to the site is if you give them your password. That is a threat to your privacy and it isn't a lame excuse. If they demand your log in details ask to speak to the jobcentre manager or your regional manager.

I agree with all this in principle, I’m just trying to find a way to deny them access without it becoming a long drawn out dispute with them over it. I haven’t the time or inclination to get into a battle with them. I know you're not suggesting that I do but it seems that this is exactly what could happen in the absence of a clear statement from them that they categorically will allow us to withhold access.
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What will you say to your work coach when you deny access to FAJ? 19 May 2018 12:27 #7686

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comply or die wrote:
There is also the `Cookie` thing as regards to allowing cookies on our own home computers, but that isn`t enough to stop them asking us to log in on THEIR IED`s, so probably a mute point. The password security argument sounds a good one. I would worry that submitting my password on one of their machines would then be logged somewhere by the Find a Job/DWP Cookies? I`m no IT expert, but Cookies are tracking devices that record preferences etc....

So I think I would use the password/cookie argument as regards their own PC`s, but would still like a failsafe point for not using the site full stop in favour of using other sites. It really is frustrating that people who sign on are faced with this childish nonsense when job search evidence is job search evidence and shouldn`t rely on us using one particular website because it`s linked to DWP. That alone tells us it`s a ball & chain.

If I were going to withhold my password, I would probably only do so by using the master password ploy suggested by Ducray earlier in this thread. For me, it this has three attractions:

a) Using it allows a credible concern to be expressed to jobcentre staff that if you give them your password, they will then in theory have access to all your logins anywhere online. What jobcentre staff member could find an argument against that?

b) Using it doesn’t make you come across as an antagonistic or “I know my rights!” person. You need to keep jobcentre staff thinking that you are placid and somewhat docile. They need to feel that they are in charge. Aggravating them (however right your cause) would be counterproductive.

c) Using it doesn’t involve drawn-out disputes over DWP policy statements about FAJ access denial.
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What will you say to your work coach when you deny access to FAJ? 19 May 2018 12:51 #7687

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osris wrote: b) Using it doesn’t make you come across as an antagonistic or “I know my rights!” person. You need to keep jobcentre staff thinking that you are placid and somewhat docile. They need to feel that they are in charge. Aggravating them (however right your cause) would be counterproductive.

Couldn`t have said that better myself osris. This isn`t about being antagonistic or ending up feeling as if we are in a situation of placing barriers up which can cause anxieties we don`t need, it`s all about complying within their rules but making it clear that we also have the right to say no, or debate (not argue) the points surrounding why that is and stating the concerns about cookies, password privacy and `here do we stand if we would rather by-pass `Find a Job` and present our job search (as mentioned earlier) ` in ANY form WE choose? If this is still possible, then we should use that little piece of written DWP advice and present it.
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What will you say to your work coach when you deny access to FAJ? 19 May 2018 12:54 #7688

osris wrote:
You need to keep jobcentre staff thinking that you are placid and somewhat docile. They need to feel that they are in charge. Aggravating them (however right your cause) would be counterproductive.
This is falling right into their hands, and not the right way to approach them being "docile". I don't see it as aggravating them, making them aware you know all about the rules and regulations regarding the DWP and what they can and can't do. If anything it makes them more defensive and wary of you which can be to your advantage.

Oh, I always try to be placid, no matter what crap they throw at you it's best to always stay calm, usually it's them that ends up being anything but placid, in some cases I've had work roaches getting very angry at me while I look at them calmly without flinching. The more docile you are towards them the more they will exploit you, I've seen this so many times before observing conversations in the jobcentre between roach and claimant or with claimants I've spoken to. If you comply with anything they say and you consider it is unreasonable but accept it, then they'll see you as an easy target and probably make life as difficult as possible in the hope you will fold.
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What will you say to your work coach when you deny access to FAJ? 19 May 2018 13:12 #7689

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Have a read through this:
www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/479339/response/1158772/attach/html/5/Annex%201.pdf.html

Sound familiar? That`s because it`s either the same, or similar to the UJM statement....noted this from the page which explains a jobseeker direction:

This image is hidden for guests. Please log in or register to see it.


But it also says, or `other` website(s). Look at the top right corner, it states `Adzuna`s Find a Job` not Universal Jobmatch. They are using the same wording but changed the title to reflect Find a Job.
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What will you say to your work coach when you deny access to FAJ? 19 May 2018 15:00 #7690

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Tarquin_Flotsam wrote:
osris wrote:
You need to keep jobcentre staff thinking that you are placid and somewhat docile. They need to feel that they are in charge. Aggravating them (however right your cause) would be counterproductive.
This is falling right into their hands, and not the right way to approach them being "docile". I don't see it as aggravating them, making them aware you know all about the rules and regulations regarding the DWP and what they can and can't do. If anything it makes them more defensive and wary of you which can be to your advantage.

Oh, I always try to be placid, no matter what crap they throw at you it's best to always stay calm, usually it's them that ends up being anything but placid, in some cases I've had work roaches getting very angry at me while I look at them calmly without flinching. The more docile you are towards them the more they will exploit you, I've seen this so many times before observing conversations in the jobcentre between roach and claimant or with claimants I've spoken to. If you comply with anything they say and you consider it is unreasonable but accept it, then they'll see you as an easy target and probably make life as difficult as possible in the hope you will fold.

I’m not advocating being genuinely docile, but only to make them think you are. The more stupid they think you are, the more control you will ultimately have over them.

I think making them defensive by making them look foolish for not having read the latest DWP policy statements is like backing a rabid dog in a corner—not very good for the times you need to manipulate them.

Yes, we should present ourselves in a placid way at all times. I am always polite and friendly when I have dealings with jobcentre staff. That way, they save their wrath for their more antagonistic clients who they like to keep an eye on and make life hell for.

I think we have been brought up in a culture that emphasise confrontation rather than manipulation. There are times for confrontation, but in the case of denying FAJ accessibility I think manipulation would be safer. Manipulation is perhaps too negative a word— “stealth control” is more like what I mean.
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What will you say to your work coach when you deny access to FAJ? 19 May 2018 15:06 #7691

osris wrote:
There are times for confrontation, but in the case of denying FAJ accessibility I think manipulation would be safer. Manipulation is perhaps too negative a word— “stealth control” is more like what I mean.
Again, you speak of denying them accessability to FAJ. What gives them the right to have access to the site? Are they going to demand access to your login details on Indeed, or CV-Library? I hardly think so.

osris wrote:
The more stupid they think you are, the more control you will ultimately have over them.
I really cannot fathom out this way of thinking. :blink:
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