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TOPIC: GOV.UK Verify + Find A Job + Jobseekers Allowance

GOV.UK Verify + Find A Job + Jobseekers Allowance 08 May 2018 13:46 #7344

  • rebelyell
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Hello everyone,

I'm based in East London and had my appointment with my advisor today in which I was informed that UJM is to scalped and will be placed with FIND A JOB (though I asked for the web address they weren't able to provide it for me).

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Thanks in advance for your assistance.
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GOV.UK Verify + Find A Job + Jobseekers Allowance 10 May 2018 00:14 #7369

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Hello Rebelyell and welcome to the Welfare Central Forum. You asked:

Does anyone know if being registered with GOV.UK Verify is (currently) mandatory for receiving jobseekers allowance?
NO IT ISN’T

Is being registered with GOV.UK Verify (currently) mandatory for those on Universal Credit?
NO IT ISN’T

Does anyone know if it is mandatory to "register" for FIND A JOB?
NO IT ISN’T

Does anybody know the web address for FIND A JOB? No one at the Jobcentre knew how or where to access it.
THERE IS NO SUCH WEBSITE YET

Please check out this link:
www.adzuna.co.uk/blog/2018/03/20/adzuna-wins-contract-for-universal-jobmatch-service/

GOV.UK Verify is system developed by the UK Government Digital Service (GDS). The system is intended to verify a user’s identity to a standard level of assurance before accessing 12 UK government online services.

Third-party companies are responsible for carrying out the actual identity verification within the scheme:

Royal Mail
The Post Office
GB Group
Barclays
Digidentity
Mydex CIC
Verizon,
Experian
Morpho

All are privately owned companies, except Post Office. Several are foreign owned; several very shady indeed. Seems 2 have already been dropped, and not because of how good they were.

Anyone with even a spark of common sense should do their homework, check up on those companies, and avoid registering with this service like the plague.

By registering on GOV.UK Verify you will be signing away your data protection rights. You are basically giving DWP and one or other of the companies listed authorisation to trawl your personal data in order to verify your identity. Once they have done that don’t imagine for a moment that DWP will be the only recipient of your personal data.

No law on earth can force you to do this, only your own wisdom, or lack of it. Neither can you be sanctioned or otherwise penalised for exercising your data protection/human rights.


Jobber posted this link on 17th April, that’s about a month ago:
ico.org.uk/media/1624219/preparing-for-the-gdpr-12-steps.pdf

This link has also been posted before:
GDPR - (General Data Protection Regulation)
eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32016R0679&from=EN

This is an EU Regulation that comes into law across the EU on 25th May 2015. This includes UK.

Suggest you read it before getting involved in the wild speculation and doom laden scenarios that is being played out on other threads by members who should know better because they were told often enough. Can’t understand why they persist in causing anxiety among the membership.


The following should further clarify the position re Gov.uk Verify.

1. An interesting article on Gov.uk Verify from ComputerWeekly .com
2. A Freedom of Information response to using Gov.uk Verify
3. A more recent FOI response

Typically the coaches at Jobcentres are encouraged to get claimants to register and, again typically, the whole site is a shambles.

On the plus side, registering is not mandatory.

www.computerweekly.com/news/252434188/Thousands-of-Universal-Credit-claimants-unable-to-use-Govuk-Verify-to-apply-for-benefits

Thousands of Universal Credit claimants unable to use Gov.uk Verify to apply for benefits
Bryan Glick Editor in chief of ComputerWeekly.com 31 Jan 2018

Government research shows that barely one-third of benefits claimants can successfully apply for new Universal Credit digital service using flagship online identity system

Hundreds of thousands of benefits claimants could be unable to register for the new Universal Credit (UC) digital service because of problems using the government’s online identity system Gov.uk Verify, according to new figures that show barely a third of UC users successfully use Verify.

The Universal Credit (UC) digital system, which is due to be introduced at all Jobcentres by the end of 2018, works on the basis that people applying for benefits will set up an account online and prove their identity electronically using Gov.uk Verify – either on their own computer or with assistance from Jobcentre staff.

But the Government Digital Service (GDS), which develops Verify, has revealed research showing that while 35% of UC users can set up a Verify account online, 30% are not able to, and the remaining 35% could use Verify, but do not.

“Further research at a job centre showed that out of 91 users, 48 needed help with the process,” according to the latest minutes from GDS meetings with the Privacy & Consumer Advisory Group (PCAG), a panel of independent identity experts who advise on Gov.uk Verify issues.

Further tests at the London Borough of Croydon showed that, even when claimants are given one-to-one support to help create a Verify user account, only one in five were able to successfully prove their identity online using the system.

“This highlighted two areas of concern – making people go to a venue where they were still unlikely to verify their identity, and the costs of the scheme,” said the minutes of the November 2017 PCAG meeting.

Verify uses publicly available data, such as passports, driving licences and credit histories, to prove that online users are who they say they are. However, since the system went live in June 2016, the majority of people attempting to register with Verify found they were unable to set up an account.

Digital footprint
Benefits claimants tend to have less of a digital footprint than people in employment, who are more likely to have mortgages or credit cards, and as a result Verify finds it harder to gather enough data to prove their identity. The new GDS research is the first time Verify figures have been published that are specific to the UC digital service.

Most of the 1.2 million UC claimants so far have used the original “Pathfinder” system, which handles only a limited number of benefit types and does not rely so heavily on Verify. It is being replaced by the digital service – now known as UC Full Service – which is being rolled out across the country and will be used for all new UC claims by the end of the year.

In the month to 14 December 2017, 77,000 people applied for Universal Credit, according to the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP). With the UC Full Service being introduced at, on average, 50 Jobcentres a month this year, hundreds of thousands of new claimants will soon be expected to use Verify as part of the application process. Based on the latest GDS figures, at least three in 10 people will not be able to do so and many more will struggle.

A telephone helpline is available to help apply for UC, and Jobcentre staff can also assist, but the expansion of UC Full Service assumes that the majority of claimants will prove their identity using Verify. If many thousands of people are unable to successfully use Verify to submit a claim, it is likely to cause significant extra work for Jobcentre staff.

A government spokesperson said: “GDS is constantly working to improve Gov.uk Verify to ensure it delivers the best possible service. We partner with teams from across government, such as DWP’s Universal Credit delivery team, jobcentre staff and user researchers, to find the most effective way to support with the use of Verify.”

Citizens Advice

A report from Citizens Advice in July last year warned that UC claimants were struggling to verify their identity online and lacked the digital skills to use the system. The charity called for UC roll-out to be delayed to resolve the problems it identified with the Full Service process.

“To apply for UC, claimants must first create a Verify account online, which proves their identity. While this account is useful for accessing a range of government services, it can create challenges for those claiming UC,” said the report.

UC is not the only service where Verify has been struggling. The Verify completion rate has been below 50% for most of its live use since June 2016 – meaning that less than half of all people who attempted to set up a Verify user were able to do so. The current success rate at the time of writing is only 54%.

Even for those users who manage to create a Verify account, only 48% are subsequently able to access the online public service they wish to use, according to GDS figures up to 14 January 2018.

Independent observers have called for Verify to be reviewed, claiming it has fundamental problems. The government has committed to having 25 million Verify users by 2020.

The Labour Party has also called for the government to rethink its approach to using Verify. Shadow Cabinet Office minister Jon Trickett said in October last year that the Verify programme was “being handled appallingly”.

“Not only is it inefficient and clearly failing, it also brings into question the security of citizens and the accountability of public services,” he added.

GDS hopes the private sector will adopt Verify to establish it as a UK-wide standard for online identity assurance, but concerns have been raised about GDS delays in publishing commercial rules that would allow companies to create Verify accounts and accept users that first registered to use government digital services.

GDS is also working to make Verify conform with EU digital identity standards so it can be accepted for use across Europe.

Universal Credit has also had a chequered history with its IT systems. The controversial welfare reform initiative suffered huge IT problems before the project was “reset” in 2013. A report at the time from the National Audit Office revealed that as much as £130m of IT work would be scrapped by the time the system was due to go live.



FOI Response:
www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/371073/response/905603/attach/3/4330.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

Dear Mr Fletcher,
Thank you for your Freedom of Information request of 15 November 2016. You asked:

I understand that now universal credit has been introduced in some areas, claimants are being informed that they will be obliged to register with 'GOV.UK Verify' at some unspecified date in the future in order to remain eligible to claim UC.

Please confirm the date by which GOV.UK Verify is to become mandatory for universal credit claimants.
What provision is being made for claimants who do not wish to register under the GOV.UK Verify scheme?


DWP Response
GOV.UK Verify is the new way to prove who you are online. It gives safer, simpler and faster access to Government services like claiming Universal Credit.
To be eligible for Universal Credit you must verify your identity. Claimants are asked to do this as part of the Universal Credit claim process, this must be completed before the claimant can be paid.

In Universal Credit full service once the claimant has completed their online claim they are presented with an action to verify their identity online. They can then choose to verify their identity using GOV.UK Verify and are instructed that this will save them time, rather than coming in for an identity verification interview. If a claimant cannot, or does not wish to verify their identity with GOV.UK Verify they can choose to book an identity verification interview instead by choosing "I can't verify online".

There is no date from which use of GOV.UK Verify will become mandatory; there will always be other ways for people to access services if we’re not able to verify their identity through GOV.UK Verify. However, we do expect GOV.UK Verify to become the default way to verify your identity with government for those who can. If you are unable to use GOV.UK Verify currently a face to face process is required which includes providing a range of primary and secondary evidence to prove your identity.

If you have any queries about this letter please contact me quoting the reference number above.

Yours sincerely,
DWP Strategy FoI Team


A more recent response:
www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/govverify_adoption#outgoing-685549

Date: 5 October 2017 Our ref: FOI2017/01628

Dear Mr Chaplin

Freedom of Information Act 2000 (FOIA)

Thank-you for your request, which was received on 7th September 2017, for the following information:

Freedom of Information request - Gov.Verify adoption

gov.verify is available to login to some government services. Can you please provide the most recent figures available for:

3.2 the number of government services that can be access by government gateway.

3.3 the number of government services that can be accessed by both.

Finally, it was announced earlier this year on the GDS blog that government gateway will be decommissioned next year. Is that the case and if so, what is the date for decommissioning.


DWP Response
I can confirm that HMRC holds some of the information falling within the scope of your request.

3.2 There are 123 current services that can be accessed by the Government Gateway as of 18th September.

3.3 There are 4 services that can be accessed by both the Government Gateway and gov.verify as of 18th
September.

HMRC is on track to deliver the replacement service for Government Gateway next year. HMRC is currently developing a transition plan, in collaboration with GDS and all the departments that currently have services supported by Government Gateway, to ensure there are no interruptions for users.

Yours sincerely,
Mike Howes-Roberts


I hope you find this information informative.
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GOV.UK Verify + Find A Job + Jobseekers Allowance 10 May 2018 08:41 #7374

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Taken from the FOI reply above to Mr Fletcher dated 15 November 2016:

In Universal Credit full service once the claimant has completed their online claim they are presented with an action to verify their identity online. They can then choose to verify their identity using GOV.UK Verify and are instructed that this will save them time, rather than coming in for an identity verification interview. If a claimant cannot, or does not wish to verify their identity with GOV.UK Verify they can choose to book an identity verification interview instead by choosing "I can't verify online".

This answers the question then about having to verify on line. We have yet to find out more about Find a Job website and whether this Verify ID is linked to that or if we just open an account on the site using a username/password. UJM required having a Government Gateway account. FAJ is it`s replacement.
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GOV.UK Verify + Find A Job + Jobseekers Allowance 10 May 2018 09:57 #7376

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Thanks for finally grasping and acknowledging that there is an alternative to verifying your identity on line if you are a new claimant.

If you are a current claimant it would be rather stupid to insist that you register on a site where companies who don’t know you from Adam will be tasked with verifying your identity.

Please read the EU Regulation that becomes the law of the land in about 2 weeks’ time. It confirms your rights to data protection under the law.

There is no point in harping on about a site that does not yet exist. I tried to explain this politely to you over 2 weeks ago and yet you persist in causing anxiety amongst the membership about the operation of a site that does not yet exist. Everything you say about it so far is the result of your own imagination.

UJM can’t be replaced in anything like the form it took because in a couple of weeks’ time sites such as UJM will be illegal in this country.

Gov.uk Verify can only operate if you accept and agree to use it. If you bother to read the new EU regulations you will know that making it mandatory to register on it would be illegal.

We will know more about the Find a Job site when the details of its operation are published, I think May 14th is the launch date. We will also be able to ascertain how the DWP propose to sell it to us. Until we find out what is involved we can’t fight imaginary battles over it. In the meantime please hold back your criticism and contempt for it until you understand what you are criticising and being contemptuous of.
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GOV.UK Verify + Find A Job + Jobseekers Allowance 10 May 2018 11:33 #7379

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I agree with what you say BB and once again, apologies if I replied giving any false impressions to anyone, I don`t have the same mental ability coping mechanism sometimes to take the time to find the correct protocols surround such things we all strive to find the answers to. I think I`ll stick to ESA where my knowledge base lies. But won`t pretend that I`m an expert in that field either. I can only post what I`ve experienced myself. However, from now on, I will stick to posting current links on current issues if they haven't already been posted.

I think there is a lesson here for everyone to do the same rather than ask a question and nobody knows the correct answer to it. Most of the answers will come from DWP themselves or freedom of information requests or other sources of legislation.
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GOV.UK Verify + Find A Job + Jobseekers Allowance 10 May 2018 11:35 #7380

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Benefit Bolshie,

I must offer you a MASSIVE thank you for taking the time to post such a thorough response. Extremely helpful.

Thank you too Comply or Die.

I am currently on Jobseekers Allowance and... They already verified my identity when I signed up for Jobseekers Allowance last winter face-to-face with an advisor. I don't see how they can justify asking me to do this again at this time.

Yes, I too immediately felt hugely uncomfortable with the list of third-party providers. I do not like the idea of giving them access to my personal details. Do not trust them one bit and it did occur to me that it could the case that by using these third-party providers I'd be waiving my data protection rights.

Thanks for letting me know about the EU Legislation that comes into effect on 25 May 2018 that DOES include the UK. However, do you think that there might be some in various parts of the government who might maintain that this EU Legislation may not apply since the UK is in the middle of a divorce proceeding the will, eventually, mean a final break from the EU?

Again, thank you for all of the assistance.
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GOV.UK Verify + Find A Job + Jobseekers Allowance 10 May 2018 13:01 #7382

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comply or die wrote:
I agree with what you say BB and once again, apologies if I replied giving any false impressions to anyone, I don`t have the same mental ability coping mechanism sometimes to take the time to find the correct protocols surround such things we all strive to find the answers to. I think I`ll stick to ESA where my knowledge base lies. But won`t pretend that I`m an expert in that field either. I can only post what I`ve experienced myself. However, from now on, I will stick to posting current links on current issues if they haven't already been posted.

I think there is a lesson here for everyone to do the same rather than ask a question and nobody knows the correct answer to it. Most of the answers will come from DWP themselves or freedom of information requests or other sources of legislation.

Thanks for that COD. All I’m trying to convey to you is that we have enough to contend with in the struggle without having to spend weeks making up reasons to rubbish a website that doesn’t even exist yet and then scaring each other half to death with the consequences of those imaginary fears.

Your comments on what concerns you are always welcome and long may they continue, just try to stick to reality if possible. I’m sure your comments based on your experience of ESA will be invaluable and a lot of people would welcome them. Very little is said about that benefit and the huge issues surrounding it is rarely posted here. It grieves me that we tend not to do as much as we should for those whose condition is much more precarious than our own. Anyone knowledgeable in that area of benefits could not do much better than devote some time and energy to them.

The whole point of the Forum is to share experiences, ask questions and try to help each other to define and grasp the implications of what is being done, or proposed to be done, allegedly for our own good. We won’t know whether our questions can be answered unless we ask them first. Then, collectively, we seek the answer. This will work in reality but will fail if we indulge ourselves with pointless speculation rather than fact.

The DWP and their FOI responses do not always come up with the right answers. They are, by definition, biased in their own favour and will obfuscate, slant and cloud their answers and responses accordingly. The trick is to balance those responses against the law and then arrive at truth and be able to challenge them from a position of certainty and strength.

In such a happy state, then, let them be warned that they take us on at their peril.
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GOV.UK Verify + Find A Job + Jobseekers Allowance 10 May 2018 13:04 #7385

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rebelyell wrote:
Benefit Bolshie,

I must offer you a MASSIVE thank you for taking the time to post such a thorough response. Extremely helpful.

Thank you too Comply or Die.

I am currently on Jobseekers Allowance and... They already verified my identity when I signed up for Jobseekers Allowance last winter face-to-face with an advisor. I don't see how they can justify asking me to do this again at this time.

Yes, I too immediately felt hugely uncomfortable with the list of third-party providers. I do not like the idea of giving them access to my personal details. Do not trust them one bit and it did occur to me that it could the case that by using these third-party providers I'd be waiving my data protection rights.

Thanks for letting me know about the EU Legislation that comes into effect on 25 May 2018 that DOES include the UK. However, do you think that there might be some in various parts of the government who might maintain that this EU Legislation may not apply since the UK is in the middle of a divorce proceeding the will, eventually, mean a final break from the EU?

Again, thank you for all of the assistance.

I’m glad you found the information helpful.

There is a Bill currently wending its way through the House of Lords where their Lordships are making a good job of virtually shredding it to pieces. However, once the Bill passes into law current EU law will, ipso facto, become UK law until sometime in the future when the UK passes its own version of those laws to replace them. That will not be any time soon.

Simultaneously, a new Data Protection Bill is currently passing through Parliament which enshrines the afore-mentioned EU Regulations into English law.

So, whatever happens with Brexit, you may rest assured that your data protection rights and your human rights are inviolate.
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GOV.UK Verify + Find A Job + Jobseekers Allowance 10 May 2018 16:44 #7395

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BB wrote: The trick is to balance those responses against the law and then arrive at truth and be able to challenge them from a position of certainty and strength.

Noted BB. No more waffle from me. It`s now going forward with fact based evidence if and when that becomes available! Especially with Find a Job as you say, it`s still in it`s infancy and we are yet to find out whether it`s just a rebrand of UJM or whether it`s going to be something we can use without feeling victimised. Good work. B)
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