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TOPIC: A lesson in why you cant overtax the rich

A lesson in why you cant overtax the rich 10 Feb 2019 21:47 #14027

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thought some of you might find this short video educational as i have seen some of you advocateing for a high rate of tax on the wealthy witch i agree with in principle but in reality it comes at a cost to your economy as the wealthy just leave and take there money with them.

Democrat SHOCKED, LOSES $2 Billion as Wealthy FLEE High Taxes

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A lesson in why you cant overtax the rich 11 Feb 2019 21:07 #14077

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I can’t find anything educational about this man’s argument or his justification for advocating, or even suggesting, if that’s what he’s doing, that the rich should keep more of their accumulated wealth for fear that they might go and take it all somewhere else.

This is an age old-Tory con which many have been swallowing for the last 300 or so years, and appear to continue to swallow, . The fact that so many are still prepared to swallow such rubbish goes a long way to explaining why, in this country, greed is good and poverty is an acceptable condition, so long, of course, as they're all right, Jack.

I can’t respond with a slick video but I would humbly suggest that anyone who can afford to and who is not prepared to pay a bit more to ease the suffering of those less fortunate round about them can piss off and good riddance. We may be able then, to reclaim our country and ownership of the means of production, thereby improving our lot ourselves without having to become dependent on taxes on wealth appropriated through exploitation in the first place.
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A lesson in why you cant overtax the rich 11 Feb 2019 23:09 #14078

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hes not suggesting they keep more of there earning hes actualy in favour of a progresive tax on the rich as in raising it incrementally and slowly over time and nowhere near the 70% rate of taxation that some socialists like cortez wants
And the figures speak from themselfs in this instance 2 billion is allot of money to go missing and it is possible there are other factors involved to explain why so much money has just gone from there state revenue but i think he's right that the wealthy have just upd stakes and left because its not hard for them to do in a country as big as America
And put yourself in a business man's shoes if all of a sudden your being told you have to pay 70% tax on your earning and you know it will cost less to move your company to another state than you would pay over a year at the new high tax rate seems like a no brainer to me of course you would move.

Also consider for a moment what such a high rate of taxation would do when it comes to foreign investors why would they want to invest in a country that is going to tax you more than a neighbouring country its not like these people give a damn about Britain beyond how much money they can make from setting up shop here.

Even if you where British and you made a successful business I still reckon most would leave sooner or later when they realise how much more they can make some place else very few would let something like national pride or desire to help there community stand in the way of there own self interest its only human nature

And there is always some country willing to whore themselfs out to big business to get there money take apple for example last I heard they where operating out of Ireland and only paying a 12.5 percent tax if Ireland raised the tax apple would start looking for the next lowest bider maybe they move to Germany coz Germany offers them a 13% tax rate
not sure exactly what apples earnings are per year but lets say hypothetically 13% of apples earning amounts to 10 billion per year this is 10 billion for your country's economy you wouldn't earn if you didn't whore yourself out so that's why country's compete to attract those sorts of deals by offering the lowest rate

And don't get me wrong I do agree allot of these mega rich corporations should be paying a shit ton more than they do but I just don't see it being possible as long as these company's have other options. the only way you are going to pull this off is if everyone gets on board with it and all raise there tax rate but that's not likely to happen any time soon
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A lesson in why you cant overtax the rich 12 Feb 2019 09:34 #14084

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OK In Theory The Rich should pay a Much Higher rate of Tax, In the UK top Tax rate is 40%, At first glance I would say Double it to 80%
BUT; As has been stated the rich would just get up and go, After all they have private planes & boats to do just that.
But Britain would be the losers, As a lot of know how & Investment would be lost, Its Happening Now with Brexit
A Load of Businesses are shutting down there UK Operations and moving to Europe, and in some cases even further abroad.
So creating Higher unemployment; What Britain Needs is Much more Investment and Much needed Jobs, The Government wont do it, so has to come from private investment, A Big Increase in Tax will stop that dead.
Better still Tackle the TAX DODGERS, This is vastly more then a few Benefit cheets that the government chases after, Totally Ignoring the Millions of Pounds Tax Dodgers get away with.
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A lesson in why you cant overtax the rich 12 Feb 2019 22:12 #14129

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First of all, Finnster, I would question your unqualified assertion that it is human nature to squirrel accumulated wealth abroad in order to avoid paying a fair and proportionate level of tax on that wealth.

Human nature, in this context, is not the same as natural and it is based entirely on the individual’s personal understanding and perception of what is in his/her personal interests, or the interests of the like-minded human beings.

I can’t see why my nature, which inclines towards a more equal spread of wealth and a society where the unfortunate, the sick, the disabled, are not abandoned, left to starve and die in the streets or in squalor while others who are well able to do something about it turn a blind eye, should, if your definition is to be accepted, be regarded as inhuman. The very idea is an affront to decent people everywhere.

Secondly, anyone who takes such of their wealth as they can carry away to where they can use it to accumulate and squirrel away more will have to contend with and compete with others of like mind who also wander the earth chasing a fast buck and/or a place to hoard it. Sooner or later the economy into which they skulk will overheat and become their undoing.

Thirdly, the wealthy, the global capitalists and the crooks are already taking their ill-gotten gains off-shore. Hoarding it all away in tax havens, oblivious to the misery they cause. The current UK government is foremost in facilitating this practice and vehemently oppose any attempts by other nations to control it. Add to this the speculative, exploitative, adventures into other, predominantly poor, third world societies with scant regard for the populations of those societies. Not to mention the cruellest cut of all, foreign aid is denied, in many cases, to the underprivileged and persecuted peoples of the world unless they accept the strings attached including promises of easy access for the speculators and spivs to the natural wealth, mineral, and other resources of the regions they live in.

Finally, the commentator in the clip says hardly anybody lives in New York. Statistics tell us that 8.5 million live there, 100,000 less than London. He says that $2 billion or so was lost to the economy of that city when taxes on the rich was raised. In almost the same breath he accepts that other circumstances including volatility in the stock market contributed to that loss. It might give a clearer perspective of what this loss represents if he gave the full picture, eg. How many wealthy people actually left? how many businesses, or parts of businesses? What became of the homes and/or business premises they vacated? What was the total tax take before and after? What percentage of the total is $2.3 bn?

I unapologetically hate everything the Tories stand for. I find it insulting to my class and to human decency to suggest that the Tory philosophy of greed and ‘f u Jack, I’m all right represents human nature.
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A lesson in why you cant overtax the rich 13 Feb 2019 05:03 #14135

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what i need a qualification to have an opinion now ? come on man your better than that and I can make the same argument for your opinion BB but rather I would say its really a deep philosophical argument and there is merit to both arguments.
the question here is if greed is a natural part of human nature or is it learned behaviour and while I cant claim to have read it all or even allot of the literature on the subject I have read a little on the topic and I lean in the direction that it is part of human nature.
A good example of this would be how we can see this behaviour in children fighting over toys. No one teaches them to act like this they do it naturally and in fact need to be taught to share. And of course this is not universally true for all children I just think its a part of the multi faceted nature of humanity.
I prefer to believe that the wealthy business men who don't want to share there wealth are essentially like children who didn't learn to share there toys and have never experienced hardship and thus have little empathy for the poor.

And lets assume that it is not a natural part of human nature and that it is learned behaviour wouldn't that mean that the same can be said of altruism that it is something learned through life experience ? currently you may believe in a more equal spread of wealth in society because you where born in to poverty and your life experiences have lead you to resent the wealthy for hordeing there wealth
it would be interesting to see what your opinion would be if you had been born in to wealth and grown up to be a successful business man, but of course its just a hypothetical thought exercise that we will never have an answer to, ultimately I'm willing to admit that no one can give a definitive answer to this question there is allot of literature out there for both arguments.

also dont you think it kinda makes my point regarding the wealthy about how they are unwilling to share and will do whatever it takes to hold on to there wealth when you point out how many of them are already scamming the system by hiding there wealth on off shore bank accounts in Switzerland or the Cayman isles they already don't want to pay the current tax rate never mind a 70% tax rate.

All I can say is if I was wealthy I wouldn't pay a 70% tax rate for someone else's perceived greater good because I often think people who espouse that kind of rhetoric usually turn out to be inherently evil people and while you may occasionally get one good well intentioned government its usually not long before the next evil regime takes power and will most likely misuse your wealth for there own goals that you may find yourself disagreeing with.

You think the Tory's would use your 70% for good or do you think they would just abuse it for there own goals ?

And don't misunderstand me I like to think if I was wealthy I would choose to give to charity but it would be on my terms not someone else's demands and warped narcissistic notion that they are entitled to my money.
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A lesson in why you cant overtax the rich 13 Feb 2019 12:05 #14143

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I did not suggest that you need qualifications to hold or express opinions. When I said that “I would question your unqualified assertion…..” I was merely trying to point out to you that you did not qualify the assertion that you made which was that greed and not returning to society a fair proportion of the fruits that society was instrumental in bestowing on you to some extent, whether you like it or not. I was careful to avoid any personal opinions of you that I may have formed from what you wrote. I did not give any subjective opinions on your education, your upbringing or your profession, far less assert what those were.

You have now qualified your opinion with more unqualified assertions which I’m here to tell you are also unfounded:

I regarded my children and the children they interacted with as normal. Some were greedy little brats, some were cheeky little brats, some were well behaved little angels. Whatever they were they all had one thing in common, the need to fit in with the group or else risk being shunned by it.

I can’t understand how you can assert that I was born into poverty and that I had life experiences that led me to resent wealth. I was born and raised in a family that was comfortably off, son of a crofter and a Wee Free. Although we were not wealthy in material possessions, we measured wealth differently and being part of the community was a major part of that. It was not until I came to England that I got to know what poverty greed and avarice really was. I was employed all my life in management positions and although I didn’t aspire to having an off-shore account in some tax haven, I was comfortably off.

I realise that you are attempting to justify your position, if not your existence, by convincing others, and mainly yourself, that your nature is human nature. Your opinions are your own, or those you choose to defend, I have no objection to that. What I find objectionable is when you assert that your opinions, however arrived at, are indisputable and somehow everyone is born with them and they must be abnormal should it be otherwise.

I have no desire to indulge in any more of your hypothetical thought exercises, basically Thatcherite brainwashing, although your admission that you have no definitive answers to the questions you raise, basically haven’t a clue what you’re talking about, is commendable but not the ideal position to be in for giving ‘lessons’. There might be hope for you yet.

I hope you and your money, however much or little of it you have, are never parted and that you have a long and happy life together. I also pray that you are never in a position where, but for the Grace of God and the humanity of others, you could very well be in if your idea of what human nature is ever becomes the norm.
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A lesson in why you cant overtax the rich 13 Feb 2019 14:24 #14166

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right coz your asertions are qualified and we should all listen to your opinion right ? pretty much every critique you have of my opinion apply's to you

what makes your opinion any more qualified than mine havent you just backed up your unqualified opinion with more of the same unfounded noncense

you see how this works ?

your not the wise oracle you seem to think you are your only sharing your opinion witch is no less valid than mine.

And like yourself I was not born in to wealth i was raised in one of the poorest housing estates in Glasgow and I left school at the age of 15 and have worked hard most of my life, everything I had I worked hard for its only in recent years I haver fallen on hard times but unlike yourself I don't buy in to the narrative that I'm a victim and look to blame capitalism for my lot in life I take responsibility for my lot in life if I had stayed in school and got more qualifications I might not be in this position.

But you go right ahead and keep telling everyone they are a victim talking nonsense about retaking the means of production its like your reading straight out of the communist manifesto, you say I'm a brainwashed thatcherite I say your a brainwashed communist. I can attack you with offensive labels too you know but just remember who went there first.
And if you ever decide to man up and apologise for that remark ill do the same for calling you a commie but I don't think you have it in you.

My admission that I don't have all the answers is an attempt to concede some ground so that we can reach a mutual understanding. Something that seems to have escaped your attention, I think for you this is not a conversation but a debate where you try and score points to validate your point of view but unlike me you aren't willing to concede any ground and acknowledge that my concerns are every bit as valid as yours. I prefer discussion over debate its more productive you should give it a try some time.

Despite what you think I'm not your enemy nor am I some cold hearted person who dosent want to see some sort of economic reform and an end to the injustices of the world I just don't agree with you on this point and think its the wrong approach to this problem. your solution is historically proven to lead to nothing but starvation death misery and oppression but don't worry it all for the greater good right ?
Well I'm sorry I cant get on board with that I don't want to see my friends and family starve to death and I really like my freedom, my opposition to your point of view is not born out of a cold heart quite the opposite its born of a very legitimate concern for the well being of those around me you solution terrifies me I don't want the UK to turn in to another Venezuela to satisfy your hypocritical show of selflessness and empathy.

About the only thing I agree with that you have had to say is about cronie capitalism witch I think is the real problem in the world the real crooks who have too much money and power over politics who have exploited the third world for personal gain but I think in your mind you believe every wealthy person is to blame and I don't buy that for a second the majority of wealthy people have worked hard to get what they have and many of them do generously give to charity and have a kind heart and a willingness to help others.

And furthermore at no point did I remotely suggest it was abnormal to not share my opinions or that they where indisputable so stop twisting my words to suit yourself. In fact it's quite the opposite as I said human nature in people is multi faceted we are all different with different points of view and unlike you I'm wiling to listen to others and try and understand them and find common ground.
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A lesson in why you cant overtax the rich 15 Feb 2019 07:40 #14241

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Previously i talked about how country's whore themselfs out to attract big business and some recent developments in NYC have just proven my point Amazon was set to settle in NYC and thanks to the maddening cry's of the far left socialists they have now pulled out and everyone's pissed about it because they have cost there state thousands of jobs and revenue, jobs that could have helped lift people out of poverty and revitalised there economy.

This is where your way of thinking leads BB I hope you are enjoying your pyrrhic victory because the people of NYC are going to suffer because of your logic this is what happens when base your political opinions on feeling's and not facts.



And again let me reiterate my thoughts on this I don't think this situation is right I would like to see the wealthy pay more tax but your solution clearly dosent work so instead of espousing the same old tired rhetoric that's failed time and time again you need to start thinking outside the box and come up with some new idea's and if you cant do that at least accept that your current way of thinking is a failure.

On a fundamental level we want the same thing you and I (something I suggest you should focus on) we just have different opinions on how to go about achieving that, and unlike yourself I'm willing to admit I don't have all the answers I'm more than willing to admit I don't have a working solution but clearly you don't either.
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A lesson in why you cant overtax the rich 16 Feb 2019 11:43 #14285

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More on the amazon story here and AOC's insanity

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A lesson in why you cant overtax the rich 16 Feb 2019 12:48 #14291

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One should be VERY Careful with Socialism, Its a system where The Government Controls every aspect of your life,
Runs the economy into the Ground, Destroys your Country, Its called Communism, and we Dont want it here in Britain.
They also PRINT Money, Cause Hyper Inflation and then go cap in hand to the IMF (International Monetary Fund) to bail them out;
Happened here in Britain back in the 1970s, that and the 3-Day week, we were in a dreadful mess.
So if ANYONE Is considering Voting Labour, Just Remember Corbyn is a Marxist and a Hard Core Communist.
Our Current Government may be Far from Perfect (To say the Very Least ! :ohmy: ) But its still Better then a Labour Alternative. :)
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A lesson in why you cant overtax the rich 16 Feb 2019 13:15 #14292

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This is why us old school liberals believe in things like the right to the free market economy i.e capitalism. We believe life is a meritocracy and you control the fruits of your labour because when you allow socialism your essentially just giving the government all the power and what you end up with is tyranny.
us liberals want small government as in less government interference and control of our life.

You know that thing called freedom B)
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