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TOPIC: "Inclusion wage" introduced in Italy.

"Inclusion wage" introduced in Italy. 15 Apr 2017 17:29 #1605

  • miguel1975
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Source here:

www.ansamed.info/ansamed/en/news/sections/politics/2017/04/14/two-million-italians-to-be-raised-out-of-poverty-gentiloni_5f274958-f6b7-4790-b36c-db44fb3311f8.html

and a very poor Google translation here:

translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.repubblica.it%2Feconomia%2F2017%2F04%2F14%2Fnews%2Fprende_forma_il_reddito_di_inclusione_andra_anche_ai_proprietari_di_immobili_tetto_da_485_euro_al_mese-162959434%2F

I didn't know where to post this one. It's not really an universal income (of which I'm not a fan and I'm not taking shit for this from Sunday morning pseudo revolutionary on this site).

Instead I think this is a shy step in the right direction. It is still technically a benefit, albeit unconditional, as there are no strings attached.

In typical Italian fashion the criteria are complicated and unnecessarily confusing, however I seem to understand that the only requirement is to have either no income at all or a very little one. Savings will be accounted but only to a very limited extent. Real estate will not count. One has to have been resident in Italy for three years before they can qualify (bummer! Otherwise I'd have moved to Italy tomorrow!)

Single persons, if im not wrong, won't get much (about €250 a month) while families will get around €500 a month.

Peanuts, yes, but at least no humiliating visits to the Jobcentre and no social stigma. Plus food banks in Italy are very good. They usually run by either the catholic church or the unions.
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"Inclusion wage" introduced in Italy. 15 Apr 2017 17:47 #1607

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Good find, M.

I had previously thought that the Italian gov was so corrupt that something like this would never have any legs ....Surprised B)

It's already in the right place and I'm sure Brutus would be interested in this.
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"Inclusion wage" introduced in Italy. 15 Apr 2017 19:36 #1616

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No more corrupt than any British governments of the last 25 years.
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"Inclusion wage" introduced in Italy. 15 Apr 2017 23:55 #1623

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Thanks, actually looking at some local informations (in Italian) it seems that it is some form of benefits tied to specific conditionalities, that have not yet been decided (the measure, a form of executive legislative measure, will begin in May).
It replace a similar subsidy but it is more universal.

It is aimed mainly at families with kids and elderlies in charge.

In Italy there is not a benefit system comparable to the North European models. There is instead a patchwork of national and regional or council specific helps, pensions or emoluments of sort, often temporary, the idea behind this is based on the outdated model of "family support".

It is also important to realise that Italy is a more socially primitive Country, and the comments below the article, are mostly worried about giving money without a clear set of obligations and conditionalities, with only few people holding a humanistic view.

Far from been a UBI like measure is nonetheless a step in right direction and should be given credit.
To eliminate unemployment one needs only to eliminate the unemployed
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"Inclusion wage" introduced in Italy. 17 Apr 2017 11:03 #1685

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I don't understand what you mean by socially primitive country? Do you mean Italians sit around the fire, communicating playing the drums and performing human sacrifices to ingratiate the Gods?
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"Inclusion wage" introduced in Italy. 17 Apr 2017 12:32 #1691

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As long as the Tories rule we will struggle to get our benefits as they stand, never mind a UBI. Some of our parties are talking about it but won`t implement it because they will be too scared of the costs and the `giving something for nothing` culture of people who would rather die than see the poorest and those struggling being offered some human compassion. Ten years or so ago I was claiming Income Support and living my life as if that was a UBI because I never had to go near a job centre, but still having to attend medicals as they were know then every three years or so and passing them with no issues.

I`m now on ESA and I fear the reaper like everyone else claiming so that feeling of having some control has completely gone. I believe even JSA/UC should be a UBI as long as people are still willing to look for jobs and want to work. It`s the strings attached element that ruins it.
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"Inclusion wage" introduced in Italy. 18 Apr 2017 04:03 #1719

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miguel1975 wrote:
I don't understand what you mean by socially primitive country? Do you mean Italians sit around the fire, communicating playing the drums and performing human sacrifices to ingratiate the Gods?

Yes.

Really not very different from what they're doing here :silly: .

The main point, facetiousness a part, is that in most of Europe the type of social system based on the principle of a direct relationship between State and Citizen, the State do directly something for the citizen, for instance the idea behind of old age pensions, that that an old man unable to make a living should be helped, never quite evolved.
Most of the "modern state" features have been copied from a cluster of North European countries, that have developed the concept. This adaptation is somehow morphed through pre-existing cultural constants, family, guilts, professions, regionalisms, etc. etc.

In Italy for instance the pension system is unnecessarily complex, is not catered to provide a minimum requirement but to satisfy a byzantine way for a remuneration for tax paid in a lifetime.
The result is an abundance of miserable pensions and few incredibly opulent ones.
In addition to puzzlingly nonsense situations that arise from this lack of guiding principle, for instance the decision to rise pension age that is leaving hitherto pensioners in that years gap in a vacuum.
So in this sense the country is "socially primitive", where the consciousness that everybody is respected by the State because they are citizen has not yet significantly entered the socio-political debate.
To eliminate unemployment one needs only to eliminate the unemployed
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"Inclusion wage" introduced in Italy. 18 Apr 2017 04:25 #1720

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comply or die wrote:
I believe even JSA/UC should be a UBI as long as people are still willing to look for jobs and want to work.


The idea of UBI is intrinsically connected to the idea that the respect of a person's individual life is what living socially is all about.
So the possibility of giving to all the chance of living a life out of material need is what a society should be aiming for.

The concept of work and jobs is therefore not an purpose in itself but an unwanted necessity.

If "JSA/UC should be a UBI " it should therefore not be "as long as people are still willing to look for jobs and want to work" as a "freedom of speech" should not be granted "as long as they do not offend anyone", for instance.

However, yes the concept is valid and the idea of transforming UC in a form of "half-way UBI" has been aired more than once.
To eliminate unemployment one needs only to eliminate the unemployed
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